These are things that need a subscription, though… These are remote features that require internet connectivity and application serving. Things that don’t just come with a one-time fee. These are actual services being provided by Kia or Hyundai. This isn’t the same as putting a hardware feature of your car behind an arbitrary pay wall.
yeah, i agree. it costs them money so there’s little to no incentive to run that stuff for free.
also the price is reasonable (about as much as a single Nano ec2 instance on aws + mobile plan that’s required to connect the car to the internet) and pretty much negligible when compared to amount of money you’ll be spending on that vehicle anyway.
then there are privacy concerns tho. do you trust kia with knowledge of your exact car location, 24/7? (I’d assume it doesn’t connect to their servers without the subscription?)
also that information (Exact location of all kia vehicles, with exact model numbers and registration information) seems like a goldmine for car thieves if leaked (or accessed by a third party.)
also, fuck heated seat other hardware/local software subscriptions
Make the car cost £400 more, once, when it’s bought first hand. That will cover any costs for the lifetime of the vehicle. There you go, chuck the subscription in the sea.
I see your point but the costs to most if not all of what they offer are minimal… And for sure most of that could be a single payment when buying the car, calculated an estimated usage during the estimated life of the car, they could just be part of the price of the car not even indicated.
I remember back in the old days when remote start was a thing you paid someone to install in your car and, in those days, “remote climate” was remote start plus remembering to set it on high before your got out.
Subscriptions are dumb, you should be able to buy these outright, but there are people who can’t so 🤷🏻♀️
Edit: but for remote lock and alarm, those have been around for ages. That should come standard.
Features like this really do require a subscription model. This isn’t enabling remote start by pressing a key on your fob. This is sending a request to a server, which connects to a cell tower to broadcast signal saying “turn on this car”. That stuff ain’t free. Someone has to pay AT&T for the data connection.
What BMW was (is?) doing is abhorrent. You’re buying a car with heated seats, and you have to subscribe to hit the button.
Sure, you need to pay for the connection, whether wifi for cell. There’s no need for specific servers or computation to take place. Yeah, you’ll need to pay for another (low data usage) phone line probably, but that should be it.
Then let me have the remote start that has existed for decades as ONE option (without a monthly subscription), and the remote start that requires an entire infrastructure that isn’t required for me to look out my window and remote start my car as an option for those who want or need it.
That’s Kia - I thought we were speaking more broadly. We drive a Toyota product and were offered nothing but the app. However, to your point that may have been poor salesmanship.
Features like this really do require a subscription model. This isn’t enabling remote start by pressing a key on your fob. This is sending a request to a server, which connects to a cell tower to broadcast signal saying “turn on this car”. That stuff ain’t free. Someone has to pay AT&T for the data connection.
Only because they unethically intentionally designed it that way, when they could’ve just as easily picked a different design that could’ve worked entirely locally. They are inventing excuses for rentiership.
As they pointed out in your original post, it’s not, “the subscription model…for something that you already paid & own.” This isn’t subscription seat warmers, it’s paying for an additional service outside the car. You can argue it’s too expensive, but without their internet connection and servers, these features wouldn’t be possible.
Remote start has been around for well over a decade and did not require internet or a subscription. If you just subscribe and use the feature then clearly the neccesary equipment for remote start is already installed and you paid for that equipment regardless if you use the subscription service.
There’s no need to host servers for 99% (maybe 100%) of this stuff. All the remote start features can be done through a direct connection between your phone and car. There’s no need for a third computer to be involved, except to check if you’ve paid for it. As long as your car has wifi access (or phone network access, which would need to be paid for) then it can communicate with other devices on the network/internet. Sure, you still have to pay for the internet, but that’s paid to the ISP, not the car company.
I’m not sure which direct connection you’re thinking of, but for most phones that would be limited to WiFi (probably WiFi Direct), Bluetooth, and maybe NFC. NFC range is tiny and Bluetooth’s is pretty small. WiFi’s range is approximately the same thing as an RF remote, which isn’t great.
Also, if we did have direct connection (which would be great for confirming the start worked, and the status of the car), why would we need internet??
By direct I meant routing to the car and user device, not through company servers. There’s no need for that. Both devices are computers. The only reason the company would need it routed through them first is to make sure you’ve paid up.
Yes, I mentioned that. However, the cell plan would be a lot cheaper. There shouldn’t be a lot of data coming through.
It would mean exposing it as much as any other device is exposed. It’d have a port open and listening for communication. Honestly, I’m pretty sure it’d be identical to how it is currently. It’s not like sending the communication from the company server is any different than from any other device. Its not connecting directly to the company’s servers. It’s a wireless service. Sure, it needs security measures, but it already needs that.
IMHO, It makes sense though. Piracy and open source are two approaches to attacking the enclosure of public (intellectual) space. Roads for cars are literally an enclosure of public space. The subscription model just extends from this logic.
Edit: These are also things that make sense because the car has to have cell service via a provider.
you’re paying for a backend service and a constant internet connection for your car here though, not for some client side feature that can be easily unlocked
they still have to pay for the backend infrastructure
my point is that this is not a client side feature, so it can’t be unlocked by some cpu vulnerability. This is a case in which a subscription service DOES make sense
In the end we are in cat & mouse situation
Vulnerability found > hacker cracked it > car company figure it out > vulnerability get patched
It’s same issues with John Deere tractor, from what i heard many farmer hire bunch of hacker to crack the software
there is no real script to do it. They released the full research paper on it and basically you pull part of the infotainment system low as it boots and it opens the maintenance menus that allow you to grant entitlements. It’s a 100% physical attack. It also probably gets reversed every so often as mothership “detects problems” with your tesla.
There is plenty of subscription or always online software out there that is cracked and fully working, Adobe products, Microsoft office, Spotify, etc.
Obviously any service that can’t be replaced with a free or open source alternative won’t work, first thing I think that would be on the chopping block would be anything that uses GPS, though that’s just a guess, I don’t really have intimate knowledge of this
“When I was their age, a car meant freedom. It meant you could take yourself to a place your friends were and your parents weren’t, anytime you wanted. To them, the Internet means freedom, and they don’t really see the point.”
You know what true freedom is? Not requiring a car to get to places by having decently designed neighbourhoods where people can walk or cycle. For longer distances good quality transit could be available. No massive investment or lisence needed to travel.
For real, the amount of freedom I get here without a driver’s license in the Netherlands is insane. I walk to the train station and can get anywhere in the country and even to a lot of other places in Europe.
Then I can just decide on a whim to walk to the grocery store, take a bike ride to visit my parents, go to a movie theater, whatever you can think of.
If there’s one thing I have pride in with my country, it’s the infrastructure we have. I find it very hard to imagine moving out of this country because of it.
I don’t know how old your dad is, but when I was a teenager 25 years ago, I could pick up a car for under $500, and it ran. Now, if it runs and drives it’s automatically $2500. It’s also probably beat to hell.
I can’t really blame kids today for not being interested in that.
~ 12 years ago I got an 04 rodeo for $1k and kept it running for a decade until it died over covid. That same $1k 2004 clunker that’ll still be in the shop for something every couple of months (even more so now 12 years later) is going to be 3-4k.
No thanks 🤷my bus system sucks but it works and I can just grab an Amtrak somewhere if I wanna travel.
I really don’t agree. Young people still like to be able to move around freely and “the internet” is not the same as phisically going to bar, roadtrip, etc. In my opinion, nowadays people mostly don’t buy cars because A) they can’t afford it and B) we’re more nevorinmentally conscious.
Dubai is a car dependent hellhole that exploits guest workers slaves. They’ve only got metro because it’s cool to have some and some people aren’t allowed to drive and you sort of have to pretend that you’re giving fair options to people who don’t drive.
The goal is to make it “Dubai was a car dependent hellhole”. The Emirate of Dubai acknowledges the problems and have a plan to fix it and it is being executed right now. What sets UAE apart from many other states, is its ability to get things done.
Literally same. My entire life has been striving to build a life where I don’t need a car. (mainly out of frustration with NJ’s toxic surcharge program).
Sadly, no one in NY was hiring and my dumbass moved to Austin. Now my drive is to get back to NY where there actually is a hope of using public transit.
Exact same here. The amount of money cars cost is fucking ridiculous. I would pay more and wait longer to not have to deal with the bullshit of owning a car, but I can’t even do that because American public transit is worse than Mordor.
Ebikes will get you a good chunk of the way there in a lot of places. Other than that, if you live in a city then vote like hell and go to city council meeting as often as possible to demand bike lanes. Local voting actually matters and can change (some) things.
If you live in the country… Eh… Start sabotaging gas stations I guess? I don’t even know where to begin with a constructive answer. Rural folks are basically forced in to cars and there isn’t much to do about it without massive changes. In the Netherlands even small towns get train stations, but in the US and Canada and even a lot of Europe rural folks are just screwed.
At least here in Illinois rural towns have okay train access and can easily accommodate bike infrastructure. Many rural towns with a university have decent bike networks already. It’s North American suburbs that are more hopelessly designed around private vehicles.
I lived in rural California and Oregon for a while and there was just nothing. You had a car or you couldn’t live. Wanna get groceries? Drive, because it’s too far to bike and even if you did you’d probably get killed by a car. Wanna get your mail? Drive to the post office. Don’t bike because you’ll get hit by a semi. Wanna go see a movie in a theatre? Yeah, drive for at least half an hour to get to the closest one. But both of the towns I spent the most time in burned to the ground in wildfires so… Yeah…
But it’s good to hear not all of the US is hopeless and some of it is almost functional. I hope at least some parts survive, because there’s a whole lot that just can’t exist without cars and cars can’t exist forever.
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