For a while I would have agreed, and I used sway for years. But recently I switched back to i3 (i3-rounded) due to display issues with my AMD GPU. I started doing most of my development in the TTY, and found that switching from TTY to Wayland takes half a second and can sometimes break my GPU (until I switch between TTY and display a few times). With X11 it’s instant and without issue ¯_(ツ)_/¯. Hoping that gets fixed down the road, or that it’s specific to my GPU.
Most of those are perfectly ready for every day use without issues today. All are alternatives that bring new features and specific use cases, solving new problems, or solving old problems in innovative ways. Wayland is an active replacement to an existing technology, as the old X is expected to just not exist anymore at some point in the future. BTRFS isn’t intended to replace Ext4 wholesale, Flatpaks doesn’t intend to replace apt/pacman/etc., Pipewire does the same that Pulse and Jack but Pulse and Jack won’t stop existing. Adwaita existing doesn’t mean that you can’t use QT or GTK in your projects. That’s the difference.
As a result Wayland has the burden to actually fulfill and comply with all the features and use cases that X11 already does, with all the new security improvements on top. That’s a tall order, and until it can do so, it will be undercooked and under adopted, because they set themselves up to that bar, nobody but them is responsible for this. Is the ancient “let’s rewrite from scratch” trap that all dev teams fall on at least once in their lives. It isn’t impossible, but it always takes way longer than the optimist project managers anticipate.
Feature parity with X has never been the goal. Because most of X’s features are a legacy of the 80’ and dreadfully obsolete anyway.
I’m all for maintaining compatibility where it makes sense, but carrying over a 40 years old feature set just in case is the best way to prevent anything from moving forward.
Wayland can already do or is actively being developed for stuff that is relevant to modern systems: multi-monitor with different refresh rates and scaling, HDR etc. Stuff that X would never dream of.
Feature parity, maybe not, but use cases, definitely is the goal.
I’m just saying that if users have to run X compatibility portals to get basic functionality for every day tasks, then something is not fully baked yet. There’s nothing wrong with that. But apparently pointing it out is some sort of herecy.
I don’t think it’s heresy, but I always find it funny that an extremely vocal community shits on systemd for being a bloated tentacular monster shat should be abandoned, but praise X for being a bloated tentacular monster.
In a way, Wayland is much closer to the Unix Philosophy than X. It’s a display protocol, nothing more. Everything else should be implemented by the applications using this protocol. X has grown over the decades to include way too many features and edge cases.
Translation layers like XWayland are important and extremely useful for the transition period, but shouldn’t be taken as a sign that Wayland is not ready for prime time. If 10% the people shitting on Wayland had instead worked on adding Wayland functionality to their favorite apps (that includes you fuckers at nVidia), the transition would have ended years ago.
Counter-counterpoint: Wayland is perfectly fine and production ready and has been for several years now, as long as you’re on AMD or Intel GPUs. The nVidia drivers are still undercooked and not ready for proper daily use.
Mostly all. At work we have to use teamviewer. Remote from Wayland to others work but you can’t connect from another client to a wayland client. Tried hoptodesk, ruskdesk etc. always the same.
I don’t have personal experience with nvidia graphics. How does proprietary work now? I have heard it’s gotten great this last year? Or is it horrible still?
I haven’t found any issues except sometimes when I switch to another window out of baldur’s gate 3 and switch back again, baldur’s gate 3 freezes. Not sure if it’s the game not being Linux native or the driver.
No offense, but your argument is exactly like “electric cars are still undercooked and not ready for proper daily use because I still have to put gasoline in mine and can’t afford one”.
Sure, but at the end of the day, for better or for worse, there are going to be tons of people who simply don’t care about whose fault it is - they’re going to want their system to work.
I was lucky enough that I was finally able to make enough money to swap out my 2080 with a 6700 XT this week (and wow what a significant difference in how the Linux desktop works with AMD cards), but I have plenty of friends who do have Nvidia cards and if they asked me whether they should give Linux a try I’d have to warn them that they’re going to get a subpar experience due to it - and all they’re going to hear despite me saying that it’s Nvidia’s fault is that Linux isn’t good enough.
So when it comes to Wayland + Nvidia, hopefully Nvidia gets with the program, but otherwise we’re (the Linux community) going to be at a crossroads of whether we want to get more adoption on Linux - Nvidia is not a small market by any means.
I don’t go and try to proselytize people into coming over to Linux, but there are absolutely plenty of people who do and the mindset of “It’s not Linux’s fault, its X (ha)” isn’t exactly going to work there.
Does multi-monitor sets work yet? Does it still randomly crashes when logging out? Does it have support for touch monitors already? Is Pipewire support ready? Is the Compose key still broken? Does it handle internationalization better now? Does accessibility software like on screen keyboards and screen readers already work on it?
I love Wayland, BTW, the more secure ecosystem is a net positive. But we can’t pretend it isn’t a lot of effort for something that has no tangible difference or immediate advantage for the end user, is extra work for developers and currently has a higher potential for errors, malfunctions and missing features that are taken for granted. Again, it’s a worthy endeavor to improve something that already works, but that also means there’s no rush. We can afford to wait.
It hasn’t done that for the 1.5 years that I have been using it for.
Is Pipewire support ready?
Yes. It’s so ready that even ubuntu uses it with wayland by default.
Does it have support for touch monitors already
Yes. It, in fact, has better support than x org.
Does it handle internationalization better now?
I don’t know about the problem with i18n but I don’t think this will affect most users.
Onscreen keyboard is still a pain to run but maliit works on kde+gnome/wayland. When was the last time you used wayland dude? I am not trying to sound this argumentative. If I do, my apologies but I have been listening to these same points being regurgitated over and over again when they have been fixed long ago.
Wayland integration with most DEs is absolutely incomplete regardless of Nvidia support. Wayland causes a ton of bugs every time I try to use it with KDE. There are still bugs even with GNOME like wine applications not working or screen sharing not working. So no I will not be using Wayland until it’s ready for everyday usage, which it isn’t right now.
He’s a thought. Stop being a power nerd, stfu and let people use what they want.
My desktop crashed three times so far after updating gnome, linux kernel and nvidia driver two days ago. Not sure who’s the culprit, but I’ll blame nvidia by default.
No, unless your use case is very specific (like being an artist needing color calibration/the software you use needs to position a multi-window setup etc. And color calibration is being actively worked on should have basic support in Plasma 6 according to Nate Graham) wayland is pretty much ready for daily use. It does have annoyances but they are getting actively fixed unlike X which is barely maintained and has glaring security issues. Fedora KDE has even decided to completely remove the X server on its 40th release.
You do know that the people who make Wayland are the exact same people who made and maintained X, right? Like, they are intentionally abandoning X in order to make Wayland, and eventually X will just be actually XWayland as compatibility to transition to only Wayland.
“Unlike X” doesn’t support your argument. If X11 is barely mantained, is on purpose. X11 and Wayland are not in competition, one is the rewrite of the former. They literally have no rush to push Wayland to main stage until it can do all that X11 does, including the annoying edge use cases. Because if X11 does it and Wayland doesn’t, then people would just continue to use X11. No brainer. They need more time, that’s fine, we can all do with being a bit more nicer and gentler. There’s no rush to push adoption
There is a rush because Red Hat isn’t interested in maintaining wayland anymore. Neither red hat nor Kde/gnome are interested in supporting x org in the long run. For wayland to get better and do the things it currently lacks at it needs a greater user base and that’s why there is a rush by major people in the linux community (kde and fedora for example). Right now its at that there are somethings that wayland can’t do that x org can and somethings that x org can do but wayland can’t. Since wayland is being developed actively and is the future it’s the obvious choice and x org has far more annoying use cases that are just not gonna get fixed “unlike wayland”. Majority of the users shouldn’t have any problems switching to wayland.
The Sway implementation (not Wayland as some DEs seem to run really smoothly) sadly is still completely hit or miss depending on your exact hardware setup. I have two device (both even with nvidia grphics sigh) and one of them is just a buggy and flickering mess.
I know they officially don't. And I didn't try to say that Sway was bad in any way or that it is their fault. I was just stating facts about state of it with NVIDIA graphics (that kept me -as a long-term i3 user- from switching to Wayland).
I disagree. Sway is extremely high quality software. Nvidia is a known terrible player with FLOSS software. I hope they will continue their path of recent improvements.
No one stops you from moving to Wayland. It has it’s uses. But the FUD you’re spreading is stupid and boring. X is fine, it’s exactly what a lot of people need and it doesn’t make sense to move their DEs to Wayland only because it’s ‘new’. The fact that it took Wayland 10 years to reach any sort of usability shows just how little does it offer to an average user.
X’ architecture is insecure. There’s no isolation between windows, and each process can spy on your input. That’s just one example.
Wayland is necessary.
Self hosting, at least for lemmy, is absolute trash. I have been told a few times when asking questions that, “it is expected that you are thoroughly experienced with Linux” to be able to follow the mediocre guides. And they are trash if you are a newbie.
So people like me, who would love to use Lemmy for non Linux things, am posting almost entirely about Linux problems.
What does google and bing making search worse have to do with stackoverflow and serverfaults linux users being snobs?
Or 70% of lemmy circle jerking over how much superior linux is.
I think they just meant if you’re a total Linux newbie, one who might not even be familiar with stackoverflow, trying to troubleshoot Linux via a typical search engine (a very normal thing a normal newbie who doesn’t know better would do) won’t lead to helpful results do the current enshitification of Google and Bing. I’m pretty sure that’s all they meant bro
I wouldn’t expect running a publicly accessible server on the internet to be easy or a great idea for someone not familiar with the OS they’re using. Great way to learn, though.
Yeah I’ve got a proxmox cluster and I’ve been using Linux for decades but I wouldn’t dare host something that a LOT of users are going to access. I don’t know nearly enough about netsec and I can guarantee my vlan practices probably aren’t perfect, etc.
I have a solution for you. Just don’t have your Internet facing things on the same /24 as your home stuff. Why vlan if you can just separate them by network and switch.
Or: just do it anyways. I learned most shit after everything broke. Not before.
And how do you learn, then, from this project, if people are shitty about your questions?
I’m a sw engineer. I’ve been doing every kind of application management, development, and systems design for 25 years, nearly all of that in Linux, and I still need things answered about running apps in proxmox. I’m not coming to a Lemmy community for those answers, I’ll tell you that.
I haven’t tried to get community tech support on Lemmy, so I wouldn’t know what it’s like firsthand. If people are really that difficult, sure, that sucks. But it sounds like the person asking needs to work on more fundamental linux skills than something specific to running a Lemmy instance, and the internet is full of information about that.
I get that, but here we are. It’s something I want to do. I’ve been at it for 6 months and I’ve managed to get the site working twice, but am still struggling with SMTP. Digital ocean blocks smtp and send grid breaks the site.
SMTP in general is a pain to configure. I ran my own mail servers for a while and finally gave up and used a 3rd party service. Too many problems with antispam restrictions, and things like I’d finally get it configured, upgrade postfix or whatever and then it would all be screwed again.
Not really. There’s tutorials for everything and most of them still work 20 years later.
vs you installed ubuntu 20 and now youre trying to follow a 16 tutorial.
Would recommend using Docker (container) and Caddy (reverse proxy) to self-host as a newbie, streamlines everything and only basic Linux knowledge required (although you do have to learn Docker commands).
Congratulations, you’ve discovered the struggles of learning an esoteric hobby. Often the learning curve is steep like that. And often you will encounter elitist twits trying to push you back down the curve. But they cannot keep you from knowledge. It sounds like you’re already discovering some of the rewards.
Oh yes, I’ve been using the ansible method of deploying and I have it very close, I just can’t get SMTP working. I’ve set up an account with send grid but letsencrypt keeps telling me I’ve passed the limit for certs and every time I try to deploy it says I have to wait another week to try. I would remove certs but since I’ve already wiped those out, I don’t know what they are or how to find them.
I don’t care that much about Linux, but I did use it a bit in school. I still like seeing you guys argue about your favorite init system or whatever the hot topic is nowadays.
It’s ok because Linux content really is Windows content because in the end Linux users can’t talk about anything but Windows and how they hate it. Just like someone that got divorced and 20 years later still talks about their ex.
Well, looks like as many people loved my comment as people who hated it so I guess I’m not necessarily in the wrong place 🙂 But if you don’t like reading me feel free to block me!
I’ve got zero issues with it, I run 11 on four computers, if anything it’s more trouble every time I have to use my RPi, as if the amount of time you spend using a tool affects how comfortable you are with it.
Some days most of what goes through my feed is Linux stuff, c/FuckCars, and hardcore communism and it feels like I’m in the wrong place. Most of the time I enjoy myself though.
“I’ll stop driving my car just as soon as Putin releases the open source drivers for my tank.”
– Lemmy, probably
“I’ve taken to calling it ‘GNU/Communism’, or ‘GNU slash Communism’, because…”
– also Lemmy, probably
“Why are Linux mascots like a Russian commune? Because degenerate capitalists come to our land and freeze while we huddle together safe in our car-less utopia!”
Getting really tired of this “the fediverse needs to cater to normie interests because we’re here now and it’s what we deserve” attitude. If you can’t find a community to click with, you can always create one, join one you don’t know much about with an open mind, or don’t use the fediverse if it doesn’t have the content you like. Sorry to say it but you’re not special and no existing users on any social media platform is obligated to go out of their way to make you feel comfortable on the platform.
Same with the “your open source, community developed platform/client sucks! I demand you make the UX better because I the user deserve better! No I’m not going to donate to your development fund because you suck and need to be better before you deserve my money!” sentiments that I see on Lemmy more and more now. Seems like everyone just expects corporate level user experience and customer service from people developing open source software mostly for free as passion projects. Even after the numerous corporate boondoggles that drove people to the fediverse in the first place people aren’t the slightest bit willing to change their paradigms regarding how social media should be run.
The small community here is what makes it good. I prefer to gatekeep even more to prevent “low quality” users who think they’re entitled to everything.
You forgot “Lemmy is developed by tankies so someone that isn’t me should fork it and work their asses off so I feel more comfortable for some reason.”
Communist who believe that any criticism of china is racism, think the ussr did nothing wrong and a lot of them support Russia in the Ukraine war at the moment
I only talk about linux when the post is about linux or about operating systems. I still get hate for it. I don’t get it and dont even bring up arch anywhere lol
It’s probably not necessarily aimed at you, but for some seen as the straw that broke the camels back because they’re overexposed to the subject and have had enough.
That being said, it’s hard to see that if you’re literally commenting on a Linux thread.
Used Ubuntu Linux for a year back around '08-'09. Didn’t have a great experience and went back to Windows. Since then I’ve never had a reason to try it again. That said, I’ve nothing but respect for those that use a flavour of Linux or Mac OS. At the end of the day doing the things you need done is what matters and if a different OS than mine gets you there, that’s awesome.
I’ve tried to switch to Linux multiple times since 2008. Usually Ubuntu. I’ve even tried Linux Mint. I can never commit to the switch, I always get buggy behavior, crashes, hardware incompatibility, lack of apps (FL Studio, Adobe, WeChat for PC, etc). There are also dozens of tiny issues, like the sensitivity of the mouse/scroll wheel that feels different from Windows, even after adjusting the relevant settings. Also, for volume adjusting, the volume slider doesn’t make a sound when you change the volume level, unlike on Windows. How is it that not a single Linux distro includes this functionality? I am totally comfortable working in a Terminal if I have to, but every time I follow a terminal walkthrough I get errors; I search the error messages online and I get reading threads talking about bugs that are a decade old, there is never a solution. I am so jealous of people who can immerse themselves in Linux, I just can’t do it. I need my stuff to work out of the box, and for 15 years and many attempts to switch, it has never been the case. I can’t tell if I’m not smart enough, or I just rely too heavily on proprietary software, or I don’t want to dedicate the time to manually fixing problems with terminal commands and scripts.
My first 4 months or so with Linux sucked. I literally broke a keyboard once out of frustration. I often find myself wanting to scream “can you just fucking work for once?” More often than I’d care to admit.
I’ve been at it for about a year and a half and I’ve learned more about computing in that time than in the 30-odd years before. I’m starting to get the hang of bash, I’ve figured out the cause of, and fixed, problems without reading anything online (Google is fucking broken and it’s not getting better so it’s often not an option anymore anyway).
It can be hard. And frustrating. But it’s freeing to realize just how fucking stupid Microsoft made me. And the privacy issues always bothered me (in the process of degoogling ATM) but they bother me more now than they ever did. It’s fucking gross. And it’s appalling that companies collect what they do.
Point being your criticisms are all valid but if windows is a Honda Civic then Linux is a rusted out Porsche in the backyard. It’s going to take some effort to get it where you want it but when you do baby it’ll purr.
I think you brought up a good point in that Microsoft conditions people to expect a certain behavior from their PC. Some of that is ease of use at there expense of privacy, forced unavoidable updates, and individual software solutions that handles their respective updates.
This is the reason I have a lot of respect for people who are not in IT or Tech field, career wise, but still managed to deep dive into linux.
Even will all the ease of access that the current linux ecosystem offer, linux still is a tinkerer’s OS. You have to deep dive into the basics for some problem. That’s hard, even for someone with tech background.
The KDE desktop environment definitely plays a sound when you change the volume. I use my Logitech G Pro X wireless headset on Linux and Windows and just change the volume using the dial on the unit and it behaves the same way in both OS.
Though, to be fair, I do share some of the frustrations you mention. I’m mostly on Apple products apart from my two desktop PCs (one is Linux/Windows dual-boot, one is Linux only) which I own solely for gaming purposes and some hobbyist programming. I usually try to get non-Linux native applications running but if it proves to be too much of a hassle I simply boot into Windows or use my MacBook. I like to treat Linux as somewhat of a hobby and I totally understand that most people would rather have something that “just works”, especially when it comes to proprietary creative applications like the Adobe suite or DAWs. That being said, it’s extremely exciting to see the massive strides Linux on the desktop has made in the last couple of years. It has come a looooong way, honestly; especially for gaming. And I always support open-source projects/foundations - I’m donating to KDE/Arch/Wikipedia on a monthly basis - because I believe in the core values and advantages of FOSS and other community-driven foundations even though I’m far from a Richard Stallman.
I’m in and out with linux for the last few years. It really boils down what do you want to do on your PC. If you are into online gaming or you need some specialized software for your work you are pretty much better stay on windows. However for general use its awsome. I have replaced many of my software even on windows to foss tools. There is a small learning curve and you will certainly need the terminal in the beginning but overall not terrible. For me it was a pleasant experience seeing mostly everything works without effort. The two most popular desktops (KDE and Gnome) are fairly polished and you question a lot of things in windows after using them. In general using linux a bit gives you a new perspective on how to use a PC.
I’ve tried Manjaro kde and mint kde and it’s been a dumpster fire both times. Then again gnome was also a dumpster fire on Manjaro. It honk I’m seeing the common thread there.
I want to love kde… why won’t it let me?Fuck gnome though.
Depends which games. I play Metal Gear Solid V, and it works almost flawlessly, aside from minor audio issues when objects in the game world move very fast (using a balloon to forcibly yank a downed enemy out of the combat zone creates a quieter than expected noise)
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