I understand that this is a meme, but dismissing one of the best distro family because snaps are included is dumb. It is easy to uninstall snap entirely.
The only serious bummer is that the Firefox deb-package is now fake and only installs the snap version of Firefox. Go get Librewolf, which is basically a hardened Firefox, and use their repository.
It is fun to meme around when it is with people that are familiar with Linux. But some Windows/MacOS users who are interested in Linux might take you seriously. Ubuntu and Ubuntu-like distros are really good in terms of ease of use, support and compatibility. My first recommendation for a new Linux user is Ubuntu or variations thereof.
Tried Debian stable, kept not being able to get stuff to work because of the packages always being too old. Not advocating for Ubuntu either, but Debian? For a desktop? GTFO! I’d sooner start using emacs instead of vim.
A somewhat anecdotal comment here, but I’ve using Debian stable as a daily driver for years, both at work and at home. Haven’t had any issues yet. It’s so stable it’s almost boring. 😀 However, this is fine since I can focus on getting stuff done instead of messing about with the distro.
I wanted to, and did manage to figure the installer out once, but damn it’s user unfriendly… The os seems fine, installer was not. I had some other issues I was hoping would be fixed in Debian that weren’t, so unfortunately I did not stick with it
Does debian even exist? I’ve never seen it… I’ve used a dozen flavors of “debian” Linux professionally, as well as the headwear related branches and centos… Most recently I’ve gotten into nixos (I tried a half dozen distros, none of the “Nvidia friendly” distros would work with my graphics card outside safe mode, even after debugging and official docs listing it as compatible with Ubuntu… Five lines in the nix config, will nix again)
All this time, I’ve seen countless mentions of this mythical debian… at this point I’m pretty sure it’s just a meme, like Australia. I get Australia, someone mispronounced Austria and made up this wild story of a land full of deer who hop on two legs and kickbox (hilarious), but I don’t get the joke with debian. Is it just supposed to be the mythical Linux that works on any hardware configuration?
Older MacOS versions had stuff like the chess game preinstalled for no reason, though I don’t know how current versions look like.
I also don’t know how easy it is to remove preinstalled apps nowadays. Back in the day, you could disable System Integrity Protection, remove whatever you want, and re-enable Protection afterwards.
That chess game even predates OS X, it was a tech demo that came with the NextStep OS and has barely changed since the mid nineties. At this point it would be said to see it go.
While you can’t uninstall Safari, it doesn’t constantly discourage you to use other browsers like Edge does. Nor does Mac OS prevents you from installing competing apps.
The bigger problem is iOS, but the EU already took care of that and we’ll be able to sideload apps on iOS pretty soon.
App association is done at the OS level, and the apps are normally responsible for that. So it could be either the OS not registering the selected browser properly or the other browser not registering itself correctly as the default browser.
They need to basically register themselves as responsible for html files and a bunch of protocols (http, https, etc). I’ve never had a problem like that, and I’ve been using macs for almost 30 years (I’ve used many different browsers as default in the past).
But browsers are pretty complicated beasts, so I believe you. There are a lot of things that can go wrong and your choice may not end up being respected.
No, you’re confusing MacOS with iOS. Mac allows whatever you want. Each browser has its own rendering engine. iOS is the one that only allows (for the moment) Webkit. But that’s going to change (at least in Europe). Here: en.wikipedia.org/…/Comparison_of_browser_engines#…
I feel like I don’t really care what my peers use, or what people in general use, but the more adoption linux desktop gets, the more people getting involved in community projects there are, as well as more bug reports and the like, so the sooner things get improved upon and the better they become.
Also more about being mainstream. I’m being forced to use proprietary centralised locked down platforms because others demand it. Free software going mainstream is one of my aims
I have people asking me to help them install linux all the time. I am glad, in theory, but sad, in the practicality of having to work for free on my spare time.
More people using free software means more resources going into them, maybe industry-wide adoption. Would it not be awesome to have ODP be the standard file format for a document (because enough people use Linux to make an open standard necessary)? Interoperability will be a big thing if enough people start using Linux.
As a person who cares about the gaming ecosystem, I think it would be really healthy for Microsoft to not have full market dominance.
They’re busy making studio acquisitions which are gradually centralizing the market, which could become very problematic if they start taking anticompetitive approaches to distribution.
More people on Linux means more pressure for software availability on Linux, and if people can just move over relatively easily that prevents Microsoft from going full corpo-digital-prison-hellscape.
Windows is made by a company that would make this change in some countries but not all countries. We are not free until we are all free. Some operating systems guarantee that. Others do not.
I don’t disagree with you but dude people are sick of the politicization of everything and their operating system doesn’t even get onto that radar. They are ignorant and quite happy of it. Please let the pigs eat their shit in peace.
That said, it is quite telling that Microsoft apparently finds it more advantageous to have two divergent feature sets than to apply the change universally.
I get where you are coming from. FWIW I’m being a jackass for the hell of it rather than trying to start a flame war. But if someone is to get upset about it, perhaps its something for them to reflect on later.
Well, you could if the package was set up differently, or if you wanted to go at it manually. But they way the maintainers set the dependencies makes apt think it has to remove the whole DE, or at least a bunch of essential parts of it.
Can’t you pass something like –unmerge or –nodeps so package manager will ignore dependencies? And then add it to apt equivalent of package.prpvided to tell that this package is managed by another package manager(you).
Obvious? It’s closed source software. You don’t know jack fucking squat what it’s really doing no matter what you think you know. Because you don’t. You won’t no matter what you think you know even if you think you’re a programmer. You didn’t program Windoze. GTFO from ALL closed source software, OR ELSE.
Is this some AI generated answer? I refuse to think a person can talk like that.
The “obviously” comes from the article which states that Microsoft allows uninstallilng software which obviously means they always could do that. They just didn’t want to allow users to do it.
Yeah people will download a patched windows iso, go through an extremely complicated install process to have everything the way they want, flip a few bits in windows with some shady ass tool and give up updates instead of just using linux.
Gaming performance on Linux is excellent, I’m getting stable 60FPS on single player games on my old 1050 equipped laptop from 2016 that weren’t even playable on the old Windows install.
Anticheat however is a different story, and CoD DMZ/Zombies is where I spend most of my gaming time so it’s difficult to just give up a Windows install.
Doing all that takes about 2 hours. The shady ass tool is also unnecessary since you can manually change the registry entries. Once it’s done I can install anything by double clicking the exe and it runs 99.9% of the time.
Linux meanwhile only takes half an hour to setup and update (if we are talking about a beginner friendly one like mint cinnamon), but you will use a lot more hours trying to get everything to run. There rarely are good drivers for peripherals, to get even slightly more then the most barebone functions of my logitech gear I have to run a shady github project someone slapped together 3 years ago. The adaptive clock on my laptop doesn’t work, I loose about 2 hours of battery life and the touch pad stops working after a few hours.
I dualboot a win10 ltsc version and mint. By now most stuff runs fine on Linux, but it has taken me 10 times the effort to get to that state compared to windows. And even now I occasionally have to fiddle with wine cause it decides that this specific programm isn’t to its liking. And that’s ignoring the issue it was to run anything with anticheat. That requires a VM with GPU passtrough to even remotely work.
In my experience everything already had drivers installed on linux. I think with the logitech stuff you mean the stupid configuration ui that would perfectly work on linux but they choose to not port it(you can still use it with wine for example). All my keyboards have qmk so that works on linux. A github project is much less shady because you can check the source code. Idk whats wrong with your trackpad. Battery life is hit or miss on linux, i get more hours on linux currently but only after installing some stuff. On ubuntu or mint the battery life should be good out of the box. Anticheat is basically anti-linux so ofc it wont work. For me backwards compatibility is better on linux than windows. When i try to run old software on windows it never works. Software support is pretty good nowadays but some professional stuff wont work. If you do that you should go mac lol.
That’s only an issue if you torrent your stuff in which case linux wont save you. A windows virus/cryptominer/keylogger/etc. won’t natively work on Linux, but it will work if used with wine.
“Oh man, I’d love to use Linux because then I wouldn’t have to have Edge installed!” - Nobody. Ever.
People use Windows because it comes with the PC and it runs all their shit (maybe except some yellowing-beige and blue scanner from 1997) with no fucking about needed. They were never incentivised to use Linux. They don’t know what an OS is, and more importantly, they don’t care.
Don’t forget the ‘:’ before the q!, when you type ‘:’ you enter command mode, the q command quits the file and putting an exclamation mark after the q doesn’t save the file and forces the file to be closed
In the end linux is about choice, if you don’t want to remember the commands to edit with vim, there are text editors like nano or some kind of notepad program from your DE
As one of them, no thank you. Windows is doing plenty of other crap and I don’t like and it turns out linux is kinda fun. Also once I finally understand what I’m doing I can set up a home server and other cool stuff.
Also I’m not european so I can’t actually switch back
Yeah I’m just a shit programmer. I just have a few old workstations, a desire to eventually set up a jellyfin setup, and little enough knowledge that the beginner guides are often above my level
honestly, i barely know how to write shit for an arduino. i have no prior experience with software. linux stuff is learning by doing. try something and see if that works. the text tutorials in the documentations are often the best way to install stuff. you’ll eventually figure it out.
It’s even better when you work in a corporate environment, pay more for the Enterprise or Pro version and still get ads about TikTok and Candy Crush forced onto your users! 😁
Why yes, Microsoft, I was expecting for you to forcefully install mobile games onto our computers in our network.
If your corporate environment didn’t use GPO to just disable the suggestions (just like what you can do on the home edition to get rid of any and all ads), then I suggest they get someone actually knowledgeable in IT to manage their servers.
That’s not the point. No business should have to create GPOs to stop this sort of shitty behavior when they buy the edition that was specifically made for enterprise use.
You’d have a point for any business that buys the Home edition and then complains about the forced ads/apps.
I also keep a windows boot around just for updating my tomtom wirh map updates. Tried under Linux but the mydrive software just will not work. If anyone knows how to update a tomtom rider 400 under Linux, let me know.
It’s an old audio card. The output and input work, but it retains the volume level and mix settings as last adjusted in Windows. I’ll replace it eventually with a DAC and amp, which is what we put together for my wife’s build last year.
It’s the nuAudio card (non-pro version) from EVGA. There are a few work around a, one of which is backflashing old firmware to get some level of control in Linux, but I don’t like the tradeoff and a couple of my Elite: Dangerous tools don’t work well on Linux anyway, so I need the Windows install for that.
Why would you pay for an incompetent sabotaging system?
I installed both windows and Linux about a week ago. Linux was (with download and USB creation) a little over 30 minutes. Windows was an agonizing 7 hour journey through all sorts of dumb vague error messages, internet searches disconnecting and reconnecting drives, various rewrites the that USB drive, having to spin up a VPS in Linux and install windows there first… It was a fucking nightmarish hellscsape caused by a mix of windows developers (and their managers) incompetence and pure sabotage of people that use real operating systems.
Fuck everything about Microsoft, install Linux and stick with that. We have cookies
NGL I gotta say that sounds like a fluke. I’ve never had to spend more than an hour on a fresh windows install. I run Windows on my desktop and Linux Mint on my laptop. So while I haven’t done thousands of installs if 7 hours was a constant issue no one would be using Windows.
What kind og software did you need to find? Last time i did a fresh install of win10 (a couple of weeks ago), I downloaded Rufus to make the bootable USB and that was the only thing I needed to go “fish for all over the internet”… 30min later I was up and running, updates scheduled to run during the night when I didn’t need to use the computer.
How did you manage to do that? Installing Windows 11 only took me about 30 minutes last time. Installing Debian takes about the same time. And what does a VPS even have to do with all of this?
For me the 30 minutes to install is about right. After that I have usable Linux and an unusable Windows.
To get Windows to the same state:
Add 5 Minutes for clicking trough the "Do you want to enable handwriting? ((( We just allow ourselves to collect samples of everything you write to “improve our recognition engine” )))
Add 20-30 minutes of security updates (thankfully it got much faster with SSDs, before it could have been hours)
Add 20-30 minutes of installing necessary software like an office suite, PDF Reader with basic functionality, 7zip. This is only 30 minutes because I spent hours automating the downloads and installs trough scripts.
If it is my system or a company system: Add 20 minutes to go trough the settings of Win10Privacy to at least reduce the phoning home and to enable some necessary settings for working with the system like "Don’t restart at random times"
Add 10 Minutes to remove the installed bloatware like People, Windows Maps, Windows Experience Host, …
In summary:
Linux requires 5 minutes attention and is ready after 30min.
Windows requires 40 minutes of attention and is somewhat ready after 2h30min. Even if I skip the privacy stuff its still at about 1h20min.
To be fair: On Windows and Linux I immediately install ublock to Firefox afterwards, on Linux I run a single apt command to install some more niche software which takes about 3 minutes on a fast network connection.
I’m sorry but you are just cherry picking. I’m not going into detail, but it sounds more like you have no knowledge on windows then you do. There are many ways to shorten installs for programs, those are not windows system and can be removed from your time, same for win10privacy, same for the ‘bloatware’. In all that leaves 30 min install and 30 mins of security 'in the background’ still 30min.
I am very happy if you can enlighten me. Granted, I do not install Windows very often (otherwise I would bake all these things into an image), and there may be improvements. So feel free to make your point and save me time.
An no, security updates can’t run in the background. If I sit a user in front of a PC, the PC has to be secure. Which means that the zero day exploits from a few days ago which are already exploited in the wild have to be fixed. Also yes, software for basic tasks and configuration till usability is reached is part of an operating system install. Otherwise you have to compare the time to install a barebones Linux (1 Minute) with a bare Windows install (still 30 minutes).
I currently use chocolatey for automation of software installs. But Libreoffice alone takes minutes to install on Windows even on fast PCs. If you know a better/faster tool I am happy to listen.
So, I came here with a bit of knowledge in Linux having fucked around with Ubuntu and Arch here and there, and I can tell you, even with a sturdy and non-rolling release like Fedora Silverblue, there are easily things I can do in Windows that just work without any additional overhead or configuration that simply does not work in Linux, like fingerprint sensors.
You guys all say Windows sucks and Linux is the greatest thing since sliced bread but it still can’t do the fucking basics that Windows does in spades. When I install Windows on a machine, I have nearly a 100% guarantee that every single component is going to work properly with minimal config. When I try to do the same thing in Linux, it’s hours on the Arch wiki or deep into forums trying to figure out how to get something as basic as a fingerprint sensor to work. That’s not convenient for the average user, and you guys are not the goddamn average user, because you are okay with shit not working out of the box and doing configurations for a lot of little things that you would otherwise just take entirely for granted as simply working on Windows.
Download windows media tool. Start installation. Done in ~30 min. After install, downloads all necessary basic drivers automatically. Just have to download Nvidia GeForce. < I have installed my own PC yes, multiple times yes.
Enjoy your Linux, please don’t lie to prove unexisting superiority.
I’ve been a software engineer for many years so trust me when I say this has nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to install. I used to run Gentoo at some point so I’m not exactly CLI averse. The problem isn’t the installation, it’s maintenance. Shit just keeps on breaking for no reason and I’m tired of figuring out how to fix it.
Linux is simply an enormous timesink. It constantly needs handholding and babysitting in order to work. And it doesn’t even reward you for it with a superior user experience, just a steady stream of problems to fix. Windows might not be perfect, but it at least it works. Meanwhile, Linux is like an insecure girlfriend, it constantly needs reassurance that you still love it.
Linux needs constant babysitting? Hmm I wonder why the majority of the internet servers is Linux not Windows. Even in critical infrastructure where stability is valued, not cost.
However you can’t choose a bad distro (bad for your needs that is) ans expect a flawless experience. When I read your first sentence I expected you to be a video editor or in a field where the industry standard software is only limited to Windows. But if your a developer it’s 100% your fault. I am running Linux for over a decade with zero problems. Only time when I had a problem, I was running Arch (btw) and updating the system blindly, daily.
You aren’t dynamically changing configs, libraries and programs on a production server like you are on a user facing system. That the killer. Linux servers are only stable when you leave them alone.
Updates to servers are generally done by beta testing them on identical hardware in the lab and when you have a functioning image you send that to production. To expect that kind of treatment on a user facing system when you say update the web browser would be beyond unacceptable.
As long as GNU/Linux systems continue to have ABI compatibility issues and general buggy issues between updates, it will never be considered a decent user facing system.
Also the quality of code for CLI programs is far more roadtested than GUI related code since there are major corporate efforts to make Linux servers more stable. Since GUI systems aren’t needed for servers they don’t get the same level of attention. That attention comes from the KDE and gnome foundations which don’t have nearly the same kind of money.
There’s a reason people are celebrating Valve contributing to KDE and related GUI projects as there’s finally some real money being thrown at the problem with real results.
I have had zero problems with Linux so I lack knowledge and am overpaid? You have problems therefore you are paid fairly? Hmm sounds very logical. Any critical infrastructure project would be lucky to have you.
Furthermore, you have told another commentor in this same thread that they reek of incompetence because they have a 7 hour Windows install, yet I am being overpaid because I don’t have any problems in Linux? So a competent developer should breeze through Windows but should struggle in Linux? Is that it? Kinda contradictory don’t you think?
Are we still forgetting that Win12 will have subscription? Or at least it might. Then their terms of agreement state clearly that they will collect your personal data and share them if they see the need for it. I mean there’s more to it than being able to uninstall IE.
As great as Linux can be, using windows without the bloat or spyware is fine by me. Hell, using it with all that is fine just so long as the end user is happy.
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