In the end, the KIA car company made its cars into subscription models, I really hate this because in the end the car we buy with our own money doesn’t feel like it belongs to us. Should we finally buy an old school car ? so as not to be affected by this subscription models or is there a way to crack the software installed in it ?
What happens when the car becomes too old and they decide to drop that version of the API the car is talking with? Huh? That’s another problem with these with “critical service but it can only go through us”, when they change their mind you get fucked.
I bought a 2021 VW GLI, it has a software component called Car-net that has literally never worked. I don’t even know what it’s supposed to do. The little I’ve found is that it’s supposed to have an app remote start and maybe a few other features, but according tk carnet, my car is still dealer owned. There have been at least six contacts to the car net folks from the dealer about the issue. I have a remote start on my FOB so whatever, but the car software support issue is so real. 🤷🏼♂️
I’ve had regular software issues like this in the past and it’s such a pain to deal with and fix. Even going through customer support is painful, because it’s not supposed to be this way so it’s more than likely because of this the customer support experience will be long and you’ll go through more people. And I don’t want to even imagine how it is to have to deal with these issues on critical software and devices and to not get priority support. You feel powerless and broken.
I had to contact the dealer to have them activate the eSIM in the car and register an account their site via the app. (Pretty standard stuff)
And yes it’s a subscription like this for locating the car, updating navdata online and remote heating + charging info. (It’s a hybrid)
Well… I say “just fine” their app is slow and unstable. But everything worked nicely with an unofficial home assistant integration. And when VW moved everything over to their new app, it continued to work on my old car, and it took the HA community about a week to sort most of the new API out.
It’s not perfect, but it does technically work, even on their older models. I can still download and install updated maps on it too for the onboard nav. (Though i usually just use Android auto…)
Even if you decided not to find out how to get it working, doesn’t mean it’s abandoned.
All that being said this is one of many genuine reasons to be concerned about this trend. And a good reason for people that write about and review cars to care about the software in the cars, the support you can expect, and the companys track record when it comes to supporting older models.
And like others have stated. The BMW example with the heated seats is just… rotten.
Something like the XBUS seems like a good choice. They seem to focus on the important and practical stuff, and I can’t find any information about any sort of related subscription.
It would be reasonable if what that app did was anything that actually needed internet servers to work. Why not just pair up the phone with the car, ad-hoc like you could with a PSP, or any sort of peer-to-peer between car-phone, and call it a day? Oh, right, because then you can’t create a service you can charge monthly for.
That people are willing to pay for effectively a remote temperature control and shutdown timer, that does not need to be an internet service to work properly, can and should be dunked on.
It’s for office workers or inner city dwellers in cold regions. They can start their car which is in the parking garage blocks away. It makes sense and it costs money to run.
Theres nothing wrong at all with this. At all. Image is FUD
Because you actually believe you didn’t already paid for about 5 years of the service when you paid for the car? Human stupidity and laziness is the accurate reason for manufacturers doing this.
When you buy the car, you also pay for that integrated, albeit disable, service. To enable it you have to pay a subscription. I agree with the OP. This should never be the case. Now, the culprit is not the car manufacturer, but the people that pay for it. If nobody, or aven few people, paid for this, they wouldn’t have a business for that and they would likely stop. Bottom line is, you don’t like it? Give your money to another brand.
While there’s a bunch I am assuming you can’t look up the location of your car through an app or website, or adjust the climate controls remotely, or get alerts when the alarm is triggered.
There are some features in here that require some sort of connection, what I find criminal is that they remove the features we DO have on our old cars from the key fob and paywall them behind an app.
The crack was done because of a flaw in the AMD CPU and not the Linux component. My understanding is it’s only good for temporary override of the subscription enforcement.
They have considered how much the gains from being evil assholes offset the cost of alienating some people, and found that they make more by being evil, it’s not stupid.
There’s also the fact that remote start, while shorter range, has existed on key fobs for like 20 years. My ex wife’s 2022 Hyundai has remote start, but only through the app, while my 2013 Focus has it on the key fob.
That’s honestly the only feature that’s bundled in those subscriptions that I really want, though the alarm notification is a nice to have.
Ok, enough. At this point it’s too evident that you’re a troll paid for by Hyundai. You’ll be out of a job soon, since this will no longer be effective.
It’s a stupid image, how can you give this much of a shit about something so inconsequential? You’re all over this thread sucking hyundai subscription dong, what gives?
You’ve changed my mind. I am now also so concerned that this post in a piracy community could bankrupt hyundai and poison the minds of an entire generation that I will spend hours arguing about it on some obscure social media platform. Thank you for your service.
I have a 22 kia with remote start. I also have the app (that costs the same as this post so I don’t pay either). The remote start sets the car to 72 with nothing else on. No way to change it via settings. Paying for the app remote start is the only way to do the defroster, heated seats, steering wheel, etc. It’s so fucking lame.
The issue is that with ongoing service across time, the longer the service is being used the more it costs Kia. The larger the time boxes Kia uses the bigger the number is and the more you’re going to scare off customers.
Using Kias online build and price, looks like the most expensive Telluride you can get right now is $60k MSRP, cheapest at 30k
Let’s assume Kia estimates average lifetime of a Telluride to be 20 years so they create an option to purchase this service one time for the “lifetime” of the vehicle. Taking in good faith the pricing Kia has listed, using that $150 annual package, and assuming that price goes up every year at a rate of 10% (what Netflix, YouTube, etc have been doing) across those twenty years you’re looking at around $8.5k option. At the top trim thats still 14% extra that is going to make some buyers hesitant, at the base model that’s 28% more expensive.
Enough buyers will scoff at that so Kia can either ditch the idea entirely as they’ll lose money on having to pay for the initial development and never make their money back, or they find some way to repackage that cost and make it look like something that buyers are willing to deal with.
To me the bigger issue is the cost of the service vs what you’re getting. Server time + dev team + mobile data link cannot be costing Kia more than a few million annually, mid to upper hundred K is more likely so they must not be expecting that many people to actually be paying for any of this
Assume the communication with the app it through Internet. The car must have a 4G chip (too early to see 5G in cars, I think?). So no matter what you pay, it won’t work when 4G is retired. With marketing pushing to get new standards always faster, 4G may not last another 20years.
Anyway, bear in mind that once you subscribe, they will most likely collect detailed data about how you use the features and sell that as well…
Finally someone who gets it
Glad to see you here my fellow comrades
Honestly the people who defended subscription models for something that you already paid & own are dumb (or maybe just trolling around) like people who defend adobe for subscription models
This reminds me of the video game industry. Make a complete game, then choose to remove pieces to sell later as add-on content. Lol. The only thing I see costing them money is if they have to pay for an LTE subscription to maintain that internet connectivity so you can start your car from an app.
You keep mentioning “official video by (insert manufacturer name here)”. Are you even thinking when you say that? It’s the manufacturer, what the hell were you expecting them to promote? “were fucking you over, so here’s why you have to give us more money for a car that you think is yours but actually will never be”?
The video shows the fob starting the car. It also states that you can pay for the app to be able to do it anywhere.
It’s not a promo video, it’s a “how to” for car owners.
Are we not to believe that it really does that?
What is this internet thing for if I can’t find information? Do I have to drive to a car dealership and ask to find out if this is true? Do I need to see it in action? When I do, can you even trust my answer?
Not 1 person here has mentioned that it doesn’t work. Not 1 person here has said that the “feature” is useless or anything remotely similar.
What is in question here is the fucking pushing of companies to tie as many idiots as humanly possible to their subscriptions to keep on draining funds from them.
Give me the car for free, and maybe I’ll subscribe. Otherwise, I buy stuff with ALL it’s capabilities enabled or not at all.
My car is worth US$85,000 in my country. Everything works, app and all, and I don’t have to pay anything other than my loan, insurance, maintenance and charge (yes, it’s an electric vehicle).
I own a 2023 BYD Han, I have an account for the app, and I can do whatever it’s able to do from it without ever having to open my wallet again.
If and when they decide to make this a paid subscription, then I’ll sell that one, and move on.
So, yeah, follow a bullshit advertisement that you call a “tutorial” and believe what you want. They are just like drug pushers, only for tech.
Now who is the one making fucking noise without looking a things from a common sense perspective?
Not only that, but if you have no choice but to buy a car with internet connectivity, these are supposed to be the kind of bells and whistles they give to at least make it SEEM like you’re not being completely taken advantage of. It’s like a double-dip. “We’re giving your car connectivity so we can sell your telemetry, AND we get to charge you for all the useful features, too!”
If it costs SO much to maintain these services, cool. I’d be happy to save the poor little car manufacturers money by buying a model that uses no connectivity whatsoever. But, for some reason, they don’t seem to want to offer that. Gee, I wonder why.
Demand more out of them, because they’ll always be looking to get more out of you.
If you can, get an eBike. Cars need a ton of expensive resources. No matter what car you get, you’re basically renting it for $10k/yr anyway. Bikes can be fixed with a small set of tools in a living room without thousands of dollars of diagnostic equipment.
If you can’t do a bike because of distance, consider a motorcycle. That’s at least a little more free than a car. Cars are the worst.
I don’t think either one is viable for families, but possibly for single folks, depending upon proximity to urban areas. For folks in the sticks with unpaved roads? I don’t think so.
Yeah, I have two kids. We used an eBike in the US. The Dutch would find your comment absolutely hilarious. We do not own a car and haven’t needed one since we moved to the Netherlands. The problem is that you have a proprietary transit infrastructure that forces you to use property cars. Infrastructure is your vendor lock in.
The majority of car trips are under one mile and have one passenger. In the vast majority of cases you can replace a car with an eBike.
This just reminds me of someone else saying something like every time you suggest a car replacement suddenly everyone needs to carry a couch 300 miles in the snow.
It is not possible to be free while you have a car. But yeah, some times your forced in to that by the complete failure of American infrastructure. Cars continue to be your worst option, even if you’re forced to use them.
Edit: Correction, over 60% are under 5 miles, 28% are under a mile. Only 2% are over 50 miles. 69% of the total annual vehicle miles traveled in the U.S. occur in urban areas. In 2019, average car occupancy was 1.5 persons per vehicle.chart showing 75% of trips driving alone
I wish we had better infra to support bikes. Amsterdam is nice how you can ride around on a bike and get anywhere. It’s healthy, environmentally friendly, and cheap. Win win win.
Well instead using e-bike why not purchase an old car (from year 2000 - 2018), like old honda civic or old ford fiesta or old Toyota Corolla
I like your idea but using bike for everything but in the end is bad case especially if you need to go somewhere that very far (well using public transportation in the end kinda costly for longer run especially if you already married & have children)
I’m not saying it’s wrong to have bike for short trip it’s okay yo used bike, but in the end you need reliable car that can make you go everywhere
If you are stuck in a place that actually requires a car then this makes sense. Between the two you’ll save a ton of money.
In the long term though vehicle to vehicle communication will be required for all cars on the road. You will have (probably property) computer in your car controlling it. Unless you go back to like the 80’s or something you’ll still have a proprietary computer in your car that will need to be replaced.
But even getting a bike for occasional trips prepares you for gas prices spiking or your car breaking down.
The crazy thing is that at the price you are paying for a friggin telluride they could easily raise the price by a few hundred (ie several years worth of subscription) and it would be unlikely to shift sales by much at all but would not piss off the buyers like this. You can’t put this crap on your car loan either. I really get the sense there is a conspiracy level concerted effort to try to indoctrinate generation Z into allowing every corporation they deal with to stick an IV into their bank accounts.
They intentionally didn’t roll the subscription into the sale price. That’s the goal. They want that sweet, predictable, monthly income that they sell their investors on.
They also figured that if you’ve found your car, you’re less likely to walk away for what is essentially a fraction of the car’s price.
I honestly hope the next car I buy has shit like this. Because boy am I going to make it my mission to jailbreak it and release my code open source.
If you are clever, confident, and savvy about it I think you could get your next car for free. If there was a kickstarter type project where I could pledge an amount in support of a jailbreak for a car I owned or was thinking of getting, I’d pledge a decent amount, I think a lot of people would.
That’s the irony of all of this. I too would donate to a project that was actively trying to do this, even donate to their legal fund. I’d probably pay more than the subscription!
These asshole companies just don’t realize that a determined developer and engineer will move heaven and earth to make sure that their freedoms (as in speech) aren’t restricted.
I don’t care if it’s illegal. It’s my fucking car. Once you sell it to me, it ceases to be your property. You leave $100 bill in the glove compartment before you sell it to me? Well it’s mine now.
You leave software on my car’s computer? Welp, it’s mine now.
The car costs a lot of money and they already give you wareanty, free service and will in one way or another milk you for years to come. I don’t think one more connection to a server costs this much.
Especially since all the „telemetry” is uploaded for free.
It’s the cell plan not the server costs unfortunately. When they moved to app based starting from anywhere you need to start paying the cell carrier for that wireless connection.
I can understand some of these features requiring a $5/month subscription. Anything more than that is absolutely insane. With roadside assistance (depending on what that actually entails) I could see that sevice being bumped to $15-$20 a month,
I never said this was a bad value, but I think we all know that these prices will not remain. They will increase because people will pay it once they are locked in. And if someone buys a used car, they have to pay that subscription to get these features, ensuring the manufacturer gets a slice from used sales. I can understand the cost, but it sets a dangerous precedent. It should be one time fee that grants the VIN access to the severs permanently. What would be really nice is if we had legislation that requires companies with a certain amount of revenue to maintain services for older products so they can’t just pull the plug later anyways.
Don’t you think it’s interesting that even though the vast majority of car trips are a single person going less than a mile, every time someone brings up bikes the rebuttal is always “what if I need to move my family of 16 and their refrigerator 800 miles in freezing rain!?”
The US was built on rail. The infrastructure could be fixed. It’s a choice not to fix it. It would be better to put in energy to fixing this than creating an open source way to access a proprietary transit system. Infrastructure is the problem, car vendors are just exploiting it.
Edit: correction, 52% of trips in the US in 2021 were under 3 miles and 28% are under a mile according to US DoE (energy.gov/…/fotw-1230-march-21-2022-more-half-al…). 2% we’re over 50 miles. Over 60% were under 5 miles, which is still pretty easy with an eBike given functional infrastructure.
Yeah, but I’m not from the US, I’m from a small town in Europe, you can put “all that effort” in both places at the same time because they are 2 completelly different problems
They aren’t two completely different problems, they’re in direct opposition. Making cars more tolerable increases demand for cars. Improving mass transit and bike infrastructure decreases demand. One is sustainable, the other is not.
I think the term you mean is old car especially from before 2018
in the end old cars basically open source you can modified it whatever you want as long as not breaking regulations
Imagine your car need an updates or you don’t paying subscription fee or but the server are offline & you’re in emergency situation, and the worst of it your car won’t start without it OMG… that’s scarred me the hell out of it
It’s not like older vehicles came with those features enabled by default. On my 15 year old pickup you can’t have any of that even if you paid for it. I think this is not quite the same as other brands that are locking you out of features like heated seats.
Pretty sure there were cars around 15 years ago with remote start, heated seats, and fancy ways to lock and unlock. No there weren’t phone apps, but nobody wanted that - key fobs worked just fine.
My 2021 jeep’s key fob has an unbelievable range and works fine. My wife’s ford does have a phone app, but it’s completely free.
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