mayo,
@mayo@lemmy.world avatar

Shame on everyone in this thread that wants to have an argument about indoor v outdoor cats. 99 problems this isn’t one we need to pull out the torches for.

duffman,

Species going extinct is a matter I care about.

RubberElectrons,
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

Here here.

I_Fart_Glitter,

I’ve seen the stats on cats v birds, but I live in the country and there are feral and outdoor cats galore. I’ve literally never seen one even noticing birds except to chatter lazily at them.

But in every field there is at least one cat sitting patiently over a gopher/rodent hole waiting. Sometimes once they catch a rodent, a raven will come screaming down on them and they drop their snack and run away while the raven flies off with it.

Ravens on the other hand, love nothing more than fledgling song birds and eggs.

Ghostalmedia,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

My cat is indoors and running Linux so Lemmy will like me.

Konstant,

Forgot to mention the little animals the outdoor cat kill along the way.

chiliedogg,

You see all the scattered feathers in the second lane?

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

We should keep all predators inside. Birds, lions, alligators, etc.

AeonFelis,

Indoor cats still move a lot around the house, destroying stuff.

Toneswirly,

My cat’s quality of life was dogshit indoors. She had bad allergic reactions all the time, would stop eating, Vet bills piled up with no explanations. I let her roam the neighborhood now, shes happy as a pig in shit. Her weight is stable, shes not breaking out in rashes all the time, and she entertains the neighbors. Cry me a river about all the mice and bunnies she kills.

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

YOU are directly responsible for the extinction of animals. I hope you are proud of yourself.

“Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild”

Toneswirly,

Cool, but my cat has nothing on me as a human. Just by living you contribute to the death of millions, by your own logic. Are you gonna feel bad about that?

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

No, not as long as I’m trying to be a part of the solution, instead of being proud about being a part of the problem.

calavera,

YOU, as a human, are infinitely more responsible for hundreds of extinct species so stfu

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

You do realize Humans are the one who spread cats across the globe right? The extinctions caused by outdoor pet and stray cats wouldn’t have happened if human’s hadnt have brought them with them you absolute ham sandwich.

milicent_bystandr,

This is, I think, the most passionate controversy I’ve seen on Lemmy.

formergijoe,

The 1 to 4 billion animals killed by outdoor cats every year: X_X

Slovene,

Not to mention all the outdoor cats that are themselves killed or horribly injured.

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@lemmy.world avatar

The only cat I’ve had that I’ve felt okay with letting roam was a stray that came to us declawed, so he was mostly harmless. We still ended up making him an inside cat because we caught him sneaking into the neighbor’s house to steal their cat’s food and poop in its litterbox.

wildginger,

Declawed cats are a coyotes favorite meal. Big enough to feed the kids and cant even fight back

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@lemmy.world avatar

Not a lot of coyotes in our neck of the woods, but the little orange moron kept writing checks with the neighbor cats that his disarmed front paws couldn’t cash, so he was always coming back with scratches. One of the other reasons we stopped letting him out.

anarchy79,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

That is an oddly specific culinary preference for a wild animal to have.

wildginger,

Easy to catch fattened meals are a pretty clear cut preference

anarchy79,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

Is that how that works though? I don’t know anything about Coyotes, but I know things generally know better than to fuck with cats.

wildginger,

… Are you asking if a coyote can eat a cat?

Do you understand they hunt deer? Theyre not really worried about a cat with clawless arthritis, horn and hoof wounds are much bigger threats.

Predators dont know better than to not fuck with cats, most of them know to grab them before they get up a tree.

Slovene,

But what if he was a guest there? Maybe the neighbour’s cat told him “make yourself at home?” Did you even ask him? Psh …

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@lemmy.world avatar

We actually found out when my wife was over visiting, and he came in through the cat door, locked eyes with her, froze, and slowly backed out of the house. 😅

dragonflyteaparty,

Declawing is cruel. It’s basically cutting off your first knuckle.

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@lemmy.world avatar

I would never do it to a cat, but when this particular one wandered into my then-girlfriend’s house one night and decided he lived there, he was already declawed. He never seemed to suffer too badly from it, fortunately.

Transporter_Room_3,
@Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website avatar

I know a guy who went through 5 cats in a few months because he was getting them, letting them out, and they were getting hit by cars since he lives on a super busy road that has heavy semi traffic.

It really reminds me of that one joke “I keep having to buy a new car because my neighbors dog keeps eating it” " it sounds like you’re just feeding cats to the neighbors dog"

Dude just didn’t seem to grasp simple addition that his new cat + outside in a bad area = squish

anarchy79,
@anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

What, he was like “huh Snuffy hasn’t been around for a few days. Welp, time to get a new cat I suppose!” every two weeks?

Slovene, (edited )

Sounds like Pet Sematary.

Sorgan71,

I’m glad to know my outdoor cat kills animals

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Do you get off on animals going extinct? What is wrong with you?

“Outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild”

RubberElectrons,
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

Yup, fuck your outdoor cats.

willis936,

A stranger outdoor cat just walked with me for a few blocks on my way home from a dinner party. It was fun to have a five minute feline friend. It’s sad to know they will very likely die long before my indoor cat of a similar age.

kofe,

You just made me realize I haven’t seen the sweet ol girl by my buddy’s place in a while and now I’m sad :(

nowwhatnapster,

Fwiw my childhood indoor/outdoor cat lived to 19 whereas my indoor only cats got terminal cancer at 13. But generally speaking I believe you are correct.

calavera,

Wow, today I learned people think it’s better for the cats to keep they locked in… I pity birds who have that kind of life, now I pity those cats too

glimse,

Now today you can learn that outdoor cats kill wildlife for fun. You can also learn that outdoor cats have half the life expectancy as indoor cats

calavera, (edited )

What’s that point of living more? You’d prefer to live more in a cage? That’s not a point at all. I can understand the wildlife reasoning, but then we should just forbid cats in those places then

dudinax,

Imagine getting a highly evolved killer as a pet, perfectly tuned for a life of exploration, combat and death, and forcing them to live a long, soft boring life.

limelight79,

I cannot imagine having an indoor/outdoor cat. I’d worry so much about them while they were away. And if they just disappeared and didn’t return…I don’t know how I could stand it.

We have 3 indoor-only cats. Obviously I’m pretty attached to them.

Umbraveil,

Sometimes, you gotta do what’s best for your cat. We have one that just couldn’t handle being indoors full-time. We put a Tractive GPS tracker on his collar. It gives peace of mind and if anything happens, at least we’ll know when to find him. He’s living his best cat life.

jpeps,

I really understand that fear, and I do experience that with my outdoor cats. However cats tend to stick to their established territory and patterns and at least for mine, never go far and barely ever out of sight. In the summer being outdoor cats pretty much just means they sleep all day curled up in the garden.

limelight79,

Yeah, I can’t do it. We have fox around, and plenty of community cats (one evening, I walked down the ravine looking for our dog after he ran off, and I shined my flashlight upward to see about 6 pairs of eyes staring at me). We had a cat get some sort of blood borne disease, we think she got it from a tick that was in the house when we moved in (it’s our only theory, we have no idea what actually happened), and she spent a few days in the animal hospital, and barely survived. (It also cost several thousand dollars.) Unfortunately she passed away from multiple medical issues a few years later. :(

(We adopted another cat after she passed - we’ve never had more than 3 at once.)

jpeps,

Sorry to hear about your cat! I’m assuming you’re in the states, and I’d agree that I don’t think I’d let a cat outside there. One extra bit of support in the UK is that it’s pretty unheard of to not routinely vaccinate your cats to protect against random diseases, but of course it can’t cover everything.

limelight79,

I am. We always vaccinate our cats as well, and since that incident we give them regular flea and tick preventatives (well, two of them for the flea and tick - the third one is way too skittish to let us do that). In our case, there’s always a risk the dog brings something in, too, so it’s good to do.

wildginger,

Outdoor cats in the UK are driving your native wildcats extinct. Even if we ignore that the cat population is bringing foxes and badgers into human settlements because they make easy free meals.

You arent immune to having invasive species. In fact the british are pretty directly responsible for a lot of invasive species problems globally, so I would think yall would grasp the concept by now.

jpeps,

Wildcat extinction is an extremely specific issue. Wildcats only exist in Scotland now, driven to near extinction mostly by humans, not mating with other cats. This happened literally hundreds of years ago and has practically nothing to do with house cats. Now interbreeding is an issue for the preservation of the small number of wildcats left in Scotland. It’s sad but hardly a concern for keeping cats in most areas of the UK.

Secondly, I do ignore that cats are ‘bringing in foxes and badgers’. Can you present a source on this? I couldn’t find anything.

wildginger, (edited )

Sure, hand wave an extinction because its inconvenient.

Do you actually need me to google uk cat death counts for you? Or do you think predators entering human settlements is normal?

Did you guys not recently have a “serial cat murderer” who was just a fox leaving its kills in public places? Do you think thats a normal thing?

jpeps,

How am I hand waving it? I’m stating an obvious truth. What impact on wildcats do you expect to come from cats in Cornwall, Ipswich, or Manchester?

I think you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Yes, I would like you to google cat death counts and show me any evidence for what you’re saying. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find that cats sometimes get killed by other animals, but to suggest that it’s a significant cause of death or that they’re the reason that foxes are coming to ‘human settlements’ is complete nonsense. You make it sound like packs of badgers roam the streets of London at night.

Foxes in cities are very normal. They’re basically the UK’s raccoon. They scavenge things, including the bodies of cats hit by cars.

wildginger,

If you think foxes are normal in cities, I actually dont think a pile of dead cats in front of your house would shake you of your delusions, to be honest.

You keep on hand waving reality bud. Worked stellar for brexit, and its destroying what shred of ecosystem is left on the british isles. But hey, you havent been right yet, gotta keep pushing on until you are right?

jpeps,

I can’t tell if you’re trolling or just incapable of an adult conversation, but I’m blocking you either way. Bye.

ikidd,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Never seen any cat that chose to stay inside even 50% of the time when given a choice. I’d rather they enjoy their life than make me feel better be cause they’re penned up all the time.

wildginger,

Far better to die young under a car tire, bleeding out slowly and painfully alone on the asphalt. Totally agree, way better than living your entire lifespan.

Honytawk,

… in a gilded prison, never really have lived a single day in their entire lives.

Yeah, I’d take my chances with the tire.

wildginger,

If your house is a gilded prison to your pets, youre a shit pet owner and you shouldnt own any animal of any kind.

Like sorry bud, you can give a small mammal a fulfilling life inside your house pretty fuckin easy. Harness training a cat is so straight forward, too, so its not even a life permanently indoors.

I get youre probably so fuckin lazy that you would prefer your pet gets its guts ripped out and dies slow in the worst pain of its life. But any normal adult capable of washing their ass can do better than you, so maybe you leave the big boy responsibilities to better people.

viking,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

My cats come and go as they please, one spends about 90% of her time indoors, the other mostly nights, but is gone during daytime. I usually see her when I walk my dog, she’ll creep up from behind a bush and finish the walk with us, come in for a snack and then be gone again.

funkless_eck,

we have an indoor cat. I was worried about it so started taking it outside. It would sprint back inside.

So then I took it out and closed the door. It clawed at the door.

I picked her up and moved her off the deck. She bolted under the deck and I had to take up one of the boards to get her out and she ran back inside faster than ever.

cupcakezealot,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

the most i’ve ever done is let my first cat go on the deck on a leash and even then i panicked the whole time. one time she got out of the slider at night and i couldn’t handle it thankfully she came back like an hour or so later

Son_of_dad,

Cat owners who let their cats roam are irresponsible and entitled

emergencyfood,

Yeah, one wonders how they survived until we came along.

Ultraviolet,

The danger isn’t to the cats, it’s to everything else. Ecologically speaking, cats are an invasive apex predator. They absolutely wreak havoc on local bird populations.

emergencyfood,

Cats aren’t apex predators. But yes, they can be quite damaging in araes where they are invasive.

Ultraviolet,

Not in the wild, but in a suburban neighborhood they are. Apex is relative to what else is out there.

userflairoptional,

Cats survived before us by hunting small mammals and small birds, and they are very effective at getting fed.

The motivation at the core of naming owners of outdoor cats as irresponsible is a sharp decline in songbird populations in direct proportion to the increase in outdoor cat population.

emergencyfood,

Cats survived before us by hunting small mammals and small birds, and they are very effective at getting fed.

And, conversely, the prey evolved to avoid cats. So it is only a problem if you take cats to a place that historically did not have them. In fact, removing a predator from an ecosystem it used to keep under check can be just as devastating as introducing a foreign species.

13esq,

There’s no evidence of this. Pet cats mostly take weakened or frail prey.

wildginger,

Another middle school drop out

13esq,

Brilliant comment!

This thread is for debate. No one cares that you disagree with me personally unless you actually have a point to make.

wildginger,

Gonna need to speak with an adult, it feels weird dunking on someone who hasnt taken a high school biology class

Sorgan71,

Songbirds should die

wildginger,

Wheres your parent? This is an adult conversation

Honytawk,

That is like saying all dogs should always be leashed and muzzled when outside.

Sunfoil,

In the United States.

Kusimulkku, (edited )

What is different in other places?

MacDangus,

They’re saying that only people from the United States believe that outdoor cats are a net negative.

Sunfoil,

That’s not what I’m saying. Not only the USA. Other places where domestic cats are very new, like USA, NZ, etc also probably shouldn’t do outdoor cats.

Kusimulkku, (edited )

That’s not true. In Finland it’s actually against the law because it’s considered irresponsible animal ownership.

USA isn’t the only place where there’s reason to fear the cat gets hurt, disease or could die.

MacDangus,

I’m in total agreement just to be clear

Kusimulkku,

Ah alright. It just felt so weird seeing all the comments about USA being different, so my mind got all jumbled.

MacDangus,

I thought it was the same everywhere more or less as well.

jpeps,

In countries where cats are native, they have significantly less impact on wildlife, or at the very least form a part of an ecosystem rather than being a manual introduction (admittedly one complication here is cat populations grouping up in suburban areas). As for safety for the cats, in their native countries they don’t have any serious predators to harm them.

Kusimulkku, (edited )

I don’t know if Finland is considered native for cats but it’s against the law to let cats roam freely because there’s a very real risk of them getting injured, disease or dying. Not just from predators but from humans and cars and so on. A dead cat on the side of the road is a too common of a sight. I think the effect on wildlife is seen as secondary and the welfare of the cat is the foremost reason for it.

13esq, (edited )

I live in the UK where there are an estimated 10.8 million cats and have literally never seen “a dead cat on the side of the road”. I appreciate that it is a real risk and that it does happen, but you’re either blowing things out of proportion or there is something weird going on with Finnish cats and or Finnish drivers.

Kusimulkku, (edited )

Found this

230,000 CATS IN THE UK ARE RUN OVER EVERY YEAR!

Statistically only 25% of road traffic accidents involving cats are fatal, so the chances are good the cat can survive with urgent care - instead of being left to suffer a painful death.

cats.org.uk/…/animal-road-accident-awareness-day

13esq, (edited )

230,000÷10,800,000÷4x100%≈0.5%

If I had to personally take that risk or stay in the house for the rest of my life. I’d choose freedom every time.

What’s really more selfish and entitled? Imprisoning an animal for life in return for an increased 0.5% of safety or letting it makes its own choice?

wildginger, (edited )

Wheres your mom? This is a convo for grown ups who understand pet ownership

Kusimulkku,

I was just showing you that there’s a lot of cats dying from accidents with cars. A lot more getting injured from it. And it’s just one hazard of many. That’s why it’s not seen as responsible pet ownership (and not legal) where I live to let them roam without supervision. Could get hit by a car and suffer horribly from it without you being able to do anything about it, which would be horrific.

What’s really more selfish and entitled? Imprisoning an animal for life in return for an increased 0.5% of safety or letting it makes its own choice?

I mean getting a cat is selfish to begin with since you are getting yourself a pet after all, but as a pet owner you’re supposed to take as good care of them as possible. It’s like with kids. Once you’ve made the decision to get one you’re responsible for it and it would be silly to expect a small child to make the decisions. You’re the one who is responsible for their well-being.

13esq,

If we’re going to get philosophical, is there truly such a thing as an unselfish act?

So you wouldn’t let a kid ever do anything that had any sort of risk at all? Do you know how many children die in RTAs each year? Would you stop your child from ever walking down the street or being in a car or bus?

If not, why is it ok to put your own child at risk of an RTA but not a cat?

Kusimulkku,

We don’t have to get philosophical. It’s just that here you’re not supposed to let cats roam freely without supervision because there’s a fair risk of injury, disease or death and if those happen you might not be in position to help. So it would be irresponsible pet ownership to put them under unnecessary risk.

13esq,

You’re going to ignore the challenge that it’s ok for kids to be near roads and in vehicles on roads but too risky to let a cat out?

Kusimulkku,

Uhhh I wouldn’t let either roam freely and unsupervised? Seems like the obvious answer to me. Leaving your small child without supervision is guaranteed to get child services called on your. It’d be irresponsible as fuck.

13esq, (edited )

You’re not debating in good faith.

78 children died on the roads in the UK last year. Presumably most of them were supervised at the time.

I’m making the argument that if safety is your only priority that you would never allow a child anywhere near a road, nor would you ever let them travel in a vehicle on the roads. Please understand that I’m not talking about supervision, I’m making the argument that you can guarantee that your child will not die in a road traffic accident if you refuse to ever let them leave the house.

There is a balance to make between safety and freedom that you are being willfully ignorant of.

Kusimulkku,

You’re not debating in good faith.

You right now are claiming the stance that responsible pet ownership or responsible parenthood or in this case not allowing a cat or a small child to roam freely without supervision means you shouldn’t allow them to do anything. And that’s not what it is about.

You don’t allow either of them to freely roam without supervision because you’re unnecessarily putting them in danger of injury, disease or death.

If you want to get a cat, a safer way to satiate their curiosity and need of activity would be to spend time with them, give them activities and walk them outside. Not leaving them for their own and hope they’ll be fine. That’d be considered neglectful here.

13esq,

You’re still not understanding or being willfully ignorant of the point I’m making.

If your kid never leaves the house then they will not die in a road traffic accident. I can’t put it more simply than that.

I’m not talking about constant supervision.

Kusimulkku,

You are correct in that I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. This is what I originally said about kids

I mean getting a cat is selfish to begin with since you are getting yourself a pet after all, but as a pet owner you’re supposed to take as good care of them as possible. It’s like with kids. Once you’ve made the decision to get one you’re responsible for it and it would be silly to expect a small child to make the decisions. You’re the one who is responsible for their well-being.

You are responsible for their well being. You wouldn’t let a small child roam freely outside without supervision. That would be irresponsible. It’s the same with a cat.

If your kid never leaves the house then they will not die in a road traffic accident. I can’t put it more simply than that.

I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion or the point about kids. I wasn’t talking about never leaving the house. I talked about roaming around freely without supervision.

wildginger,

Do you speak cat? Can you confirm verbally that your cat understands road safety?

Where are your parents? Children shouldnt be a part of this discussion

13esq,

Oh fuck off. I really can’t be bothered to argue with someone so willfully ignorant of the point I’m making.

wildginger,

The point youre making is brainless shit, if you think a child is of equivalent risk as a cat to a car.

Did you think that through for even a second? I can tell a young child “hold my hand and stay out of the road.” The child understands that, and I know the degree to which the child will listen to me.

The fuck do you do with a cat? Are you meowing at it? It doesnr speak, its not human.

Dont get pissy just because your point turns to mush at a lazy flick of water.

13esq,

If you want someone to engage you in debate, you should probably attempt a more personable writing style. Until then, have a lovely life!

wildginger,

I dont want you engaging anyone, I want you to be a responsible pet owner.

But you made it clear you cant take care of children, let alone pets, so at this point Id prefer you had a caretaker.

cashews_best_nut,

British cats go to cat school as soon as their eyes open so we have very smart cats that can navigate roads.

Kusimulkku,

Sounds like it since nobody seems to be concerned about the cats, just birds.

threeduck,
@threeduck@aussie.zone avatar

Wherever there’s birds, it’s irresponsible to let cats out. NZ in particular, it’s a damn massacre out there.

Sunfoil,

In the UK, the RSPB determines no negative impacts on bird populations. And the ecosystem is irrecoverably damaged from 3000 years of human impact on a relatively small island. Unlike new colonies like NZ, USA etc.

wildginger,

The UK is losing its wildcat population because of british arrogance about cats.

Youre also bringing in all your local predators into human settlements with the free food that cats become. Foxes love outdoor cats, theyre easy meals. You know what else loves cats? Tires. Smears a cat like jam.

But whats another destroyed ecosystem to the brits? Yall love ruining ecosystems, may as well fill your own backyard with piss.

Sunfoil,

The wildcats are in Northern Scotland. I’d be OK with the Scots banning outdoor cats.

Foxes like bins, they don’t fight back.

I’ve seen maybe 1 domestic cat hit by a car, I’ve seen hundreds of hedgehogs, foxes, badgers and deer. That’s not an outdoor cat problem.

It’s easy to sit on a moral high horse about a country you don’t really know anything about. We didn’t come to this land 300 years ago. The concept of an intact ecosystem vanished about 1000 years ago. It is a completely different island. The best we can do is keep the last of our wild species ticking over.

Unlike the Americans, who exploited and continue to exploit one of the most beautiful lands in the world, when they should have known better.

wildginger,

The wildcats are now surviving in northern scotland. That was not their original range.

Your lot thought a serial killer was on a cat mutilation spree, for 4 years, only to find out it was a fox that wasnt hiding its kills. So… No, sorry, you dont actually seem to know the country you live in very well. Foxes eat cats like candy, they just prefer to hide while they eat.

But Im glad cat deaths only count when you see them, Im sure you cover your eyes often.

“Unlike the americans.” Lol, ok bud. Because I know from actual formerly british researchers that you take care of your ecosystem as well as well as you take care of your relationship with the mainland.

Sunfoil,

Okie doke. You’re clearly very angry about cats, so much so you managed to miss every point I made, good job.

wildginger,

Your points werent missed, they were just wrong.

But youve made it clear that reality wont stop you killing cats or further ruining your local ecosystem, so farewell to the poor scottish wildcat.

rektdeckard,
@rektdeckard@lemmy.world avatar

You’re uninformed. Cats co-evolved with humans to serve a job (pest control, in exchange for safety and the occasional bit of food). There have only been fully indoor cats for a few hundred years. Not all cats have to have a job, but some WANT one, just like dogs. We should let them.

My cat is angry with me if I don’t let him spend at least 12 hours a day roaming and catching bugs and mice. He has neighbor cat friends that he goes to see. Why would I deprive him of that?

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

“Outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild”

You shouldn’t be proud of contributing to the extinction of animals…

Jesse,

Can you link that quote? Curious what the source is?

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar
Jesse,

Thank you

Grayox,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

No problem o7

Son_of_dad,

Your cat is your property. Keep it in your property. If your pet becomes my pest, it will be dealt with as such. I once had a neighbor’s cat almost rip through my window screen to get inside and go after my pet parrot. If the cat had made it inside, he would not have made it out alive.

Then I could return it’s corpse to you, and you can tell me all about how they evolved alongside humans, and how that means you’re entitled to let your pet fuck up my yard, home and pets

shottymcb,

Fantasizing about killing pets is a strong indicator of psychopathy.

Son_of_dad,

Yet you’re ok with my pet being killed

beirdobaggins,
deweydecibel, (edited )

Realistically, outdoor cats don’t travel much. They just hang out in their neighborhood, chill in their favorite spots, etc.

Cats have their territory and that’s where they spend their time, doing cat things. It’s just that an outdoor cat’s territory isn’t limited by walls.

thehatfox,
@thehatfox@lemmy.world avatar

There was a BBC documentary a few years ago where they gave GPS tracking collars to a bunch of cats in a neighbourhood and tracked where they went. Each of the cats had their own territory and favourite locations.

vojel,
@vojel@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I think I watched this one and also a German documentary. It even showed that elderly cats roam way less then younger ones. Pretty interesting.

jpeps,

I loved that doc! It was fascinating seeing the vast differences in territory. I remember one cat who travelled something like a mile back and forth every day on a really narrow area. There was also a pair of cats that had worked out a little territory share amongst themselves, patrolling the same area but always 12 hours apart from each other.

Dicska,

I think you’re referring to this scientific experiment.

Son_of_dad,

Murder local wildlife, cause property damage to neighbors, kill neighbors pets, spread disease. Roaming cats suck, and so do their entitled owners who think that everyone’s property belongs to their pet

Umbraveil,

While we’re at it, let’s get rid of birds that shit on everything, deer that eat our gardens, raccoons that get in our trash, skunks that dig up our grass …

Pelicanen,

They brought up how cats disturb the ecosystem and spread disease. You brought up how other animals can disturb people’s capital. These two are not equivalent.

13esq, (edited )

Cats are natural in many parts of the world.

The Scottish wild cat for instance came to the UK across a land bridge 9000 years ago.

This thread is full of people that have probably never left America, regurgitating virtue signalling nonsense that they know very little about.

I understand that in some ecosystems that pet cats are devastating, but it’s just not true for most of the world.

Son_of_dad,

Right… Idiot

rektdeckard,
@rektdeckard@lemmy.world avatar

It’s entitled of YOU too think that the land, plants, wildlife, and ecology these creatures have lived off of for millennia belong to you. We all share a planet, it’s not up to humans to be the arbiters of who can have what and how much and at what time etc etc .

Cats may not be sapient animals, but they are sentient.

RubberElectrons, (edited )
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

No, sorry. We’ve unintentionally thrown so much of the world off balance by importing creatures that were never in certain places, that we must bear responsibility to bring things back to the balance they were at before we got there, particularly now that we know better.

If that’s not possible, we’ll do our best to get there. Where are the dodos, buddy? Keep your stupid cats indoors, and stop bothering the local ecosystem more than we already have.

emergencyfood,

we must bear responsibility to bring things back to the balance they were at before we got there

The idea that nature was in some sort of balance before humans came along is a common misconception. Most ecosystems are dynamic, and change over time. What we are doing is accelerating that change to a dangerous level.

This might seem like an academic distinction, but many conservationists have caused more harm than good by trying to ‘freeze’ ecosystems at a state that existed at some fixed point in the past. I believe it was George Monbiot who pointed out that the margins of many British roads had higher plant and insect diversity than many ‘protected’ areas.

nickwitha_k,

Or, see the wildfires in North America, caused largely by prevention of natural wildfires, resulting in a century of surplus of dead organic matter and primed with climate change-induced drought.

RubberElectrons,
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

Friend, cool it with the pedagogy. If one understands the idea of ecosystems at multiple scales, it follows implicitly that one understands the systems are inherently dynamic.

The point still stands: we’ve got to understand the environs we’ve rapidly destabilized and do something to limit our negative influence. Ergo: keeping stupid cats indoors helps the stressed systems by reducing the load caused by a bored apex predator.

emergencyfood,

Oops I forgot my point in saying all that, which was that if cats have become naturalised to your local ecosystem, then removing them could make things worse. (And by the way, cats are not apex predators.)

RubberElectrons, (edited )
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

By the way, actually, an apex is also known as the summit or peak of a curve, which domestic cats can generally be considered as they are rarely (though not never) predated upon. Wasn’t clear that you understood that, but now you do!

emergencyfood,

Cats are not apex predators. They have predators in both their natural range and some of their introduced ranges. Cats bury their poop (probably) so they don’t broadcast their presence to any nearby predators.

RubberElectrons,
@RubberElectrons@lemmy.world avatar

I’m glad you enjoy your opinion. It’s not correct, but enjoy anyway!

Son_of_dad,

Blah blah blah, legally your cat is your PROPERTY. And if your pet becomes my pest on MY property, it will be dealt with as such. I don’t live in the wild, I live in my home on my property, keep your shit bag cat off of mine.

BirdyBoogleBop, (edited )

I guess some cats love to piss on doors but I don’t think much if any property damage is being done by pet cats. I don’t think I have ever heard of a cat kiling a pet either.

Cats should be indoor only because they are murder hobos when it comes to wild birds and small animals.

Spreading diesease I can’t comment on. What diesease do cats kept as pets spread?

Spuddlesv2,

Roaming pet cats scratch screen doors, destroy door mats, piss on doors, shit in gardens, kill wildlife for sport, fight other cats, catch diseases from other cats (pet and feral), get pregnant, get hit by cars, get mauled by dogs. All of these things happen even in countries where cats are “native”.

rektdeckard,
@rektdeckard@lemmy.world avatar

Find/replace cat/human. You are a clown to even deign to compare the negative environmental impact of a fucking cat to what we have done to everything we touch as a species

Son_of_dad, (edited )

My neighbors cats used to wreck my herb garden and such. One of them once tried to rip through my window screen to get inside my house and get my pet parrot. I would have made that cat disappear if he had gotten in, and his owner would have never known what happened, and that would be their own fault

Can you imagine if dog owners just opened the door at night, and let their dogs fuck off to do whatever? They’d rightly be charged and have their pets taken away

Honytawk,

You got plenty of dogs owners leaving their pets with small children.

And those children getting mauled to death while the owner claims they would never do something since they are such a friendly family pet.

wander1236,
@wander1236@sh.itjust.works avatar

We have 3 indoor/outdoor cats because we’ve just always had indoor/outdoor cats and I never really thought about it.

Being on more cat-related Reddit and Lemmy communities, I’ve seen more and more of the arguments for keeping cats as indoor-only, and it’s been making me think more about how to care for cats we adopt.

From what I’ve seen of the discussions, a lot of them seem to center around urban areas and towns, where there’s a high population density. Some arguments also seem to be based off the assumption that the pets aren’t spayed or neutered.

We live in the middle of nowhere and all our cats are fixed as soon as possible (we’ve had kittens sometimes and they stay inside until then).

Is there different logic for this situation, or is it the same advice to always keep them indoors?

I’m genuinely asking.

BakerBagel,

If you are in the US or Canada, you should know that about half the diet if coyotes is house cats

wander1236,
@wander1236@sh.itjust.works avatar

I think we have coyotes around, but I can only remember 1 or 2 cats disappearing, and I assumed it was because they were old and didn’t want to die inside.

The “catio” idea people have been bringing up seems like it’s worth a try, but we need to get our deck repaired for that I think.

wildginger,

If you have a big enough space and want to make a sun room for human use, Ive seen lots of sun room modifications that make little side slots for cat lounging and climbing.

And feeders for local wildlife nearby give them free reality tv

sukhmel,

Afaik, the best is to give them enough space but it should be enclosed. They pose a threat to wildlife to some extent, and some of the wildlife can harm them, besides an obvious possibility of being traumatised or lost.

Grimy,

Not all cats are killing machines but with 3, chances are at least one of them is. On the other hand, an outdoor life is probably much more fulfilling for a cat.

At a minimum, make sure they have bells around their collar so it warns the local wildlife.

VindictiveJudge,
@VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world avatar

Cats can learn to move without jingling the bells and they learn that fast.

zaphod,

The bell is annoying the shit out of them, get a reflective/high-visibility collar.

Grimy,

You know, I actually thought about trying to make a product that would have a camera on the cats head and beep aggressively the moment it would detect a bird.

It’s obviously insane though

ComradePorkRoll,

There’s one theory that outdoor cats could be what allows the avian flu to become transmissible to humans which would cause a worldwide pandemic comparable to the black plague in terms of death toll. So there’s that.

Daxtron2,

Obviously there’s the safety aspect of keeping them indoors, they usually live longer. Aside from that, they’re also extremely efficient killing machines. The damage outside cats do to native animal populations is huge.

dudinax,

There’s also people with barns who maintain a constantly churning population of cats to keep rodent population down.

Bytemeister,

Outdoor cats are the number one killer of native species. They have contributed to the extinction of numerous species. Not to mention there are coyotes, cougars, bears, and hawks that can harm or even kill your cat. Outdoor cats also are a vector for diseases and parasites that can seriously harm them, or humans.

Pets should be kept indoors, for their safety, for the safety of the environment, and for your safety.

emergencyfood,

Three factors to consider:-

  • Are these cats native (or naturalised) to your local ecosystem? If wherever you live has had cats for a hundred years or so, the local wildlife would have adapted to them. Otherwise, cats can damage the local ecosystem.
  • Do you rely on the cats to suppress vermin (rats, squirrels, small birds, etc.)? Even if your cats aren’t actively killing them, their mere ‘patrolling’ can drive these pests away. But if you keep them indoors, you lose this protection.
  • Are there any local predators that are particularly good at catching cats?

If your answers are yes, yes and no, then let your cats out. If they are no, no and yes, keep them in as far as possible.

wander1236, (edited )
@wander1236@sh.itjust.works avatar

I’m not really sure how long housecats have been around in this area. I think historically there were a lot of farms here (in the 1800s) so they may have had cats, but I don’t have historical data.

We didn’t get cats to hunt down mice, but it’s pretty rare that we see them, and it’s an old farmhouse, so maybe we’re relying on their hunting implicitly? I’ve occasionally seen them catch and eat mice around the yard, and sometimes they bring one to the door to show off.

There are supposedly coyotes around, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one here, and we’ve only ever had cats just disappear a couple times, and they were already 17-19. The bigger danger seems to be other outdoor cats (not sure if they’re feral or not) that one of ours occasionally fights with, but the vet knows they go outdoors, and they’re up-to-date on all their shots.

emergencyfood,

Should be fine then.

but it’s pretty rare that we see them, and it’s an old farmhouse, so maybe we’re relying on their hunting implicitly?

The presence of your cats is probably keeping the mice away.

The bigger danger seems to be other outdoor cats

Cats have their territories and defend them aggressively. Make sure your cats are spayed, but from what I’ve seen even this doesn’t reduce aggression in females.

Jimmycrackcrack,

I suspect the middle of nowhere might be worse given that the wilife there might not see a lot of cats normally and could have more vulnerable populations. Probably depends where you live, but if it has rare wildlife you don’t see much elsewhere your kitty is possibly bad news for them. Also depending on where you live the wildlife can be dangerous for tje cat too. Eagles and snakes are a worry.

wander1236,
@wander1236@sh.itjust.works avatar

I think the only snakes we have are garter snakes, and the biggest birds are vultures.

Tikiporch,

Almost certainly not true, but you can verify here: mol.org/regions/

wildginger,

Unless you live in the native original range for cats, and your local region has zero automobiles, and you have no issue paying vet bills for random illness or parasite infections, then sure. Its probably not that big a risk to let your cat out unsupervised.

Brits are very arrogantly incorrect about their cat care. They are driving local wildcats extinct, and feeding their pets to local foxes, badgers, and car wheels.

You can still supplement outdoor time for your cat tho. Harness/leash training isnt too difficult, just go in areas you dont expect dog walkers. And you can also build catios, outdoor spaces that are fenced in.

Honytawk,

They are driving local wildcats extinct, and feeding their pets to local foxes, badgers, and car wheels.

Still better than locking them in a cage and never letting them out

wildginger,

Yo I get youre a shit pet owner, but for those of us who dont need mommy to wipe, giving a pet a fulfilling life is pretty easy.

Harness training a cat is not hard to people who can be trusted to dress themselves, for example. Sorry to hear you struggle with both.

robocall,
@robocall@lemmy.world avatar

All cats should be indoor cats

sphfaar,
@sphfaar@lemmy.world avatar

It is not their habitat, from experience I have had many cats, and in my opinion it is better to be able to leave them free so that they can go in and out without going where it needs to be clean.

seathru,

Agreed. All the strays are heartbreaking, they deserve homes!

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

Accordingly to my cat (and apparently Sarah Andersen’s), this is a reliable way to give a stray a new home:
https://us-a.tapas.io/c/46/a04126c7-b6b3-4724-8782-9deba54a6ce6.jpg
I’m not too eager to trust her biased sampling though.

[Serious now, we should be more active on that. Also to discourage people from letting cats to “take a walk” unsupervised.]

seathru,

Can confirm. Cats always choose you, but sometimes it’s more forcefully. This big boy busted through an open window, used the liter box, and proclaimed himself king.

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

Mine was hiding herself in my garage. At least the younger one, Siegfrieda; our old lady Kika was adopted almost like you would adopt a dog, but from a home owner instead of a pet shop. (Her mum’s owner took a bit too long to spay her cat.)

cashews_best_nut,

Depends on the country.

glimse,

Depends on if you live on a farm or not*

It’s not like European outdoor cats don’t murder wildlife and get killed

SpaceNoodle,

I dunno, sometimes my indoor cats step into the liminal dimension just to make me panic

Caesium,

my sister’s cat ended up chilling in the walls of our basement, and my brothers kitten discovered a hole she could fit thru between the kitchen counters. they are sneaky

bionicjoey,

Cat in the wall eh? Okay, now you’re talking my language!

SkyezOpen,

Actually managed that once. Basement was half finished by the previous owners but left a hole for the well window. The result was a gap between the window and the drywall. Cat wanted to look out the window and ended up falling onto the insulation. He cried for a while until we figured out where he was, and when we grabbed a ladder to mount a rescue he hauled his own happy ass out unassisted. Same cat also managed to find a way ABOVE the ceiling of a basement closet.

bionicjoey,
Honytawk,

You mean like that science fiction book: “The Cat Who Walks Through Walls”

Where the cat doesn’t understand that it should be impossible.

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Same. Hearing the pitter patter of their little feet casting Plane Shift when I shake the treat box never gets old though

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