I am on Windows as my workstation, but my servers run Linux, why should I install X/Wayland and VNC to manage my servers when even the later versions of Windows comes with an ssh client?
When I run linux with a gui, I mainly use the terminal as I sm more used to that rather than relearning a GUI.
Of all the reasons you could have chosen for Red Hat you chose “they killed a dead corpse”?
X11 was already dead, it isn’t getting updated, and its maintenance is gonna end eventually. Sure Wayland still has issues but once it’s ready for widespread use (which it is, save maybe for gaming on PCs with like 6GBs of RAM) the jump is unavoidable. In fact by doing this they got more people to work on fixing the issues in Wayland
Wayland on its own may be ready but you can’t build a whole desktop with just Wayland. The rest of the stack needs time to catch up.^(*) And no, not everybody is willing to use KDE and restrict themselves to whatever combination of elements happens to work right now.
^(*) Because the bright people who did this decided they needed to throw the baby out with the bathwater on X. They couldn’t possibly find a way to ditch only the obsolete parts and fix the problems and maintain compatibility as much as possible. No, everything had to be rewritten from scratch.
So here we are 15 years later, with another 5 or so to go until the whole Linux desktop ecosystem will be thoroughly redone.
as a matter of fact Cinnamon is also working on wayland (and here by wayland I refer to the whole thing not just the compositor), with the first release having come out recently iirc or coming very soon anyways and so are other desktop environments, and if they aren’t likely someone else will port them over if enough people care (such is the beauty of open source). It’s not just KDE and GNOME (which still account for a vast majority of users btw, if you choose a less popular DE you should expect slower development and less support it’s not something new or crazy or wayland’s problem it’s normal).
Because the bright people who did this decided they needed to throw the baby out with the bathwater on X. They couldn’t possibly find a way to ditch only the obsolete parts and fix the problems and maintain compatibility as much as possible. No, everything had to be rewritten from scratch.
If that was something possible/sensible to do, someone would have done it in the past 11 or something years of xorg being well on its way to the shitter? Like I get that companies make a lot of shit decisions due to money but clearly if abandoning deadware was chosen over resurrecting parts of it there’s a good reason. Also pretty sure all of it is outdated my dude so your point doesn’t stand. To my knoweledge Xorg isn’t very modular but I may be wrong here.
So here we are 15 years later, with another 5 or so to go until the whole Linux desktop ecosystem will be thoroughly redone.
Not a bad thing. Just like it wasn’t a bad thing when computers went from just the shell to a GUI, from tapes to eventually hard disks, unix to linux, etc. Xorg can’t support HDR nor lots of other things and in all these years nobody has managed to add them, not a company, not the community, not some schizo programmer with led unix socks and a custom tailored furry suit, that’s why wayland was invented and what eventually will run on everything minus abandonware. Xorg has been on its way out for years now, Wayland is perfectly usable (with notes to be made for GNOME’s implementation on the developer’s side and Nvidia on the regular user’s side) for the vast majority of users. What RH (Valve, and others) are doing is simply pushing people to get a move on and focus on wayland instead of passively waiting for it to just get better while they just stay in Xorg forever.
And btw nobody is gonna be stopping you from putting Xorg on your machine if you want. I’m using Xorg right now, merely for the sole reason my laptop with its 6GBs of RAM is too weak to run games on wayland yet due to XWayland (which again would be an easily solved issue if instead of having to make things for Xorg in mind they were made with wayland). But the switch to wayland is inevitable, not sure what you were expecting honestly you can’t keep a service from the 80s running forever when a better alternative finally arrives.
In fact, as I mentioned, keeping something on life-support this long has only been damaging as it doesn’t incentivise people to actually develop for wayland as much (even if they wanted, most its users were on Xorg and havng to choose one or the other thing they’re forced to choose Xorg, for example), granted it’s not the only disincentive there are some that are due to wayland’s implementations and particularly GNOME’s but without the move RH and others made the decisions on how to address these issues were just gonna be postponed ad infinitum.
it's on those applications to support wayland, not the other way around. X certainly wasn't developed to support upstream.
adopted an extensible standard, regardless of how it makes you feel.
more secure and resilient to a variety of attacks, including keyloggers. Yes very bad.
how about the fact that nearly all X developers founded and are now supporting Wayland, and X hasn't had meaningful development aside from break/fix patching for over a decade?
Securing the desktop protocol against keyloggers on Linux is like wearing a helmet when you’re walking down the street… yeah in theory it’s a good thing and would improve your safety, but it’s also wildly impractical and the things it protects you from are extremely unlikely.
And even if keyloggers were a huge everyday threat, you still have to allow for legit explicit uses of the technology (automation, accessibility etc.) But nah, they just said “we’re not implementing it at all”. What sense does that make?
You're proving that your hate is founded on word of mouth instead of facts. There was an accepted RFC for secure sharing of desktop resources years ago. It's solved. Many applications have already ported in.
Yes, but I can still play steam, any Valve game and atm any Linux steam game on X11.
I don’t hate Wayland as a project, I just don’t like Wayland as it current state. Give me better stability, better support with multiple monitors and a compositor with more customization, and I’ll be happy.
But, in my opinion, Wayland is by design opinionated. Some ideas are good, such as the security model, some are both good and bad, such as the Compositor VS Server+WM debate (both good systems in my opinion), some are just bad (no unified screen management option; obviously there are LOTS of protocol extension, but not all are supporting everywhere)
So, imo, WayLand just needs a stable, (really) customizable Compositor with all useful extensions and designed to put other components together; I’m still on my X11+awesomewm+rofi+polybar, and I want a customizable, stable and module approach on Wayland.
There’re discussions to drop the X11 backend with the release of GTK 5. That’s still many years away and I really don’t think there’ll be much of reason left to use X11 by this point.
What is actually still missing for Wayland?
Absolute placement of multiple windows for some scientific applications (multi-process, multi-window apps are places arbitrarily on Wayland atm, excluding compositor specific solutions).
Proper colour management support
VRR working while the cursor is shown. Needs hardware cursor (?) support in the kernel and drivers. FPS games usually don’t show cursor, so VRR works in the games which benefit the most from it.
Both are likely to get fixed in the coming years and are pretty niche.
Obviously I’m excluding compositor specific issues, like VRR, server-side decorations and global shortcuts not being implemented on Gnome. Generally they would work, if implemented.
There’re discussions to drop the X11 backend with the release of GTK 5.
A question of what will happen to the X11 backend is not the same as an active push for the removal of X11 just for the sake of it, as it was claimed.
Chances are at least the Valve side of Wine development work will not care for Wine’s X11 support either after SteamOS will only run Proton natively on Wayland instead of XWaxland as is the case now.
Yes, but I can still play steam, any Valve game and atm any Linux steam game on X11.
I don’t hate Wayland as a project, I just don’t like Wayland as it current state. Give me better stability, better support with multiple monitors and a compositor with more customization, and I’ll be happy.
But, in my opinion, Wayland is by design opinionated. Some ideas are good, such as the security model, some are both good and bad, such as the Compositor VS Server+WM debate (both good systems in my opinion), some are just bad (no unified screen management option; obviously there are LOTS of protocol extension, but not all are supporting everywhere)
So, imo, WayLand just needs a stable, (really) customizable Compositor with all useful extensions and designed to put other components together; I’m still on my X11+awesomewm+rofi+polybar, and I want a customizable, stable and module approach on Wayland.
It’s important to note that the CLA does not take ownership of your commit. To quote the CLA:
(a) You retain ownership of the Copyright in Your Contribution and have the same rights to use or license the Contribution which You would have had without entering into the Agreement.
All the CLA does, is say “I agree that Canonical can use my code under another license if they want to”. Your contribution is still yours.
I would also argue that by enforcing AGPL rather than Apache, the community gets more ownership. I’d rather have seen Canonical not require a CLA so they can sell the software you’re contributing, but AGPL forces everyone but Canonical to open up their custom versions to their customers, which are free to rehost it elsewhere and help bring the changes upstream, of course.
As for ownership: LXD was started by Canonical. The name and trademark is theirs, and they control the upstream project. Like always, you can reject their terms and provide your changes under another license, but as the article states, Oracle is free to take your Apache2 changes and use them for practically any purpose as long as they put a copy of the license next to their code and give you credit. That includes selling the software. Not just Oracle either, of course; IBM/Red Hat and Oracle can do the very same.
The community should own everything.
In a perfect world I agree, but then the community should take over doing the actual work. Right now, almost all of the work on open source is done by companies and organisations such as KDE and Gnome with their own committees and politics.
Software for some products don’t have company-supplied software (i.e. Asahi Linux, although they do have parts of the Darwin kernel for reference) but those devices also often take ages to become usable. There are also plenty of projects funded by charities and such, but most of those form some kind of organisation that owns the copyright by default.
the only REALLY good company for the Linux ecosystem as of right now is Valve
They brought Linux to the mainstream by locking down most of the customisability and by promoting running proprietary software. That’s just the way things need to be, but I’m not sure if the Linux ecosystem should be that happy about these developments.
Canonical fucks us with snap
It takes two minutes to install Flatpak and remove Snap. Their apt-to-snap transition is stupid and annoying, but it’s a very minor issue.
Red Hat kills X11
Red Hat stops maintaining X.org for free now that a better replacement is (almost) ready. The community is free to set up an effort to prolong X11’s life span, of course.
Google is closed
More and more closed (mostly on Android, because as it turned out, the people taking the Android source code and distributing their own forks didn’t contribute back much), but Android and Chrome are still almost completely open. Your alternatives are iOS (closed for all but the reference kernel), Sailfish (Android app support necessary for real world use but closed and paid), Ubuntu Touch (using the Android HAL, so about as open as Android), and the various Linux distros that can barely do power management and often lack features such as “placing a call”; Google still provides some of the best open source software for mobile devices.
Google’s ChromeOS is perhaps the weird exception here, being basically a closed-ish source Linux distribution. All the components that power it (Linux, Chromium, Android) are open source, but the special sauce that makes those useful for end users is closed.
nVidia is closed and buggy
Buggy? Yes, 100%. One day I will be able to use Wayland without random stutters and crashes!
Closed? Not for recent GPUs. Starting at the GTX1650/1660, the drivers are completely open source, with only the firmware being closed like on every other GPU. The closed nature of earlier cards (which still requires something like the GPL condom) still sucks, but they’re clearly improving.
I think Microsoft should actually be forced to either extend support or give the user one option to be secured. With the later I mean pay for license or click here to automatically choose a Linux distro that the user will be migrated to. It could be Mint or one of MS own Linux distribution with OneDrive preinstalled and links to Office 365 online word. Even install Android could be one option.
This is better than getting all the devices on the landfill.
Remember that 99% don’t know what to do with their computer or are lazy. One easy fix should be available.
The thought of this makes me feel a lot of emotions at once. I don’t think any are good… If MS made a version of Linux, I can’t even fathom how insanely badly they would fuck it up, nor can I imagine it ever happening. I cannot think of an analogy to illustrate this properly really. But yeah, hell freezing over seems like a starting point for describing the likelihood of it.
I have fantasized that MS will come to terms with how shit their core OS is and eventually make something Linux like, based on a lot of free stuff. But that feels 20 years off, and like an absolute fantasy still.
I think with the current staff in the ranks at Microsoft and leadership opening the ecosystem for end user devices, they could build something sound. (Don’t sleep on the amount of our world infrastructure running on their OS’s. They are trusted for reliability.) A decade ago I had to reprimand by team for showing up to a mtg in Redmond with a stack of MacBooks and iPads. Now staff have iPhones.
The problem is the business looks for a buck in all the wrong parts of their massively horizontal set of goods. So their Linux will be bloated with cross selling adware.
Chief, MS has multiple internal only Linux distros and publically they have CBL-Mariner and I think another that I forgot. They are mostly used with Azure. They really aren’t that much more different to what I know to any other (common) distro out there
I don’t think they would do Linux. Better if they did a stripped down version of their OS that can run like Chrome OS. Secured with a web browser. Little maintenance as so much has been removed.
It probably is. But MS choose how they want to keep the control of the users. But just leaving them like this is just bad. I feel EU should force them to give a solution since the computer came with Windows so it is their responsibility.
One alternative is to give them Chrome OS, or they might prefer building their of version of it.
Today I see a computer as end of life when it is to slow to view webpages. Often like when it is to little RAM available or the CPU is really too slow. Then I think Microsoft could stop caring about it.
It will be mostly Enterprise upgrading. The average consumer buys the cheapest laptop they can get. They won’t be upgrading. I think nowadays not many average consumers even use computers. They just do everything on a phone.
Most enterprise is going to continue to pay for extended windows 10 support especially for things like embedded control systems running windows 10 ltsc/iot.
For years I used vanilla vim before finally switching to spacemacs like 4 years ago. I’ve never used neovim, because it just didn’t seem stable and mature enough before I switched to spacemacs and at this point I’m happy with spacemacs and will probably stick with it for the foreseeable future.
My issue with vim, and the reason I switched, is that vimscript was an absolute nightmare. I was doing easy stuff, writing LaTeX, but getting vim to compile LaTeX and talk to my pdf reader (as you need if you’re going to be working with LaTeX in any kind of serious way) took way too much configuration and my setup would break fairly often as well. Spacemacs is significantly easier. I was shocked when I went from “I’ve never used spacemacs before” to “I’m comfortably writing LaTeX here” in about half an hour. My setup still breaks occasionally and sometimes it’s a bit difficult to figure out why and how to fix it, but it’s much easier than vim was, that’s for sure.
I also just like the emacs workflow. I like helm, I like being able to change how the editor works on the fly just by writing some elisp anywhere, I like how easy it is to access the documentation on functions, variables, keybindings, whatever else you might need. I like org-mode. I like that emacs has been around for decades and will be around for decades more.
I’d never heard of doomemacs. I’m pretty happy with spacemacs so I probably won’t switch, but I’ll at least read about it some more.
Ironic that your main complaint about vim would have been solved by switching to Neovim – the weaknesses of vimscript are one of the main reasons Neovim was created, I believe, and it supports Lua as an alternate config language.
I was shocked when I went from “I’ve never used spacemacs before” to “I’m comfortably writing LaTeX here” in about half an hour.
This line really piqued my interest, especially considering that I’ve had another conversation with someone else in which the general sentiment seemed to be that “Spacemacs expects you to know Emacs, while being a completely different beast of itself.”. May I ask how your Spacemacs is configured? Would you say it’s close to the default config? Or rather a significant departure? Furthermore, I believe I’ve read the existence of some kind of version control. Which, at least by the name of it, should somehow contribute to a more stable experience. Or am I perhaps confusing things?
My setup still breaks occasionally and sometimes it’s a bit difficult to figure out why and how to fix it
Does this happen randomly? Or rather as a ‘response’?
I like being able to change how the editor works on the fly just by writing some elisp anywhere
This sounds very interesting and promising. Would you mind providing an example of sorts such that I can perhaps better grasp both the sheer amount of new possibilities it provides as well as its (possible) limitations (if at all)?
I like that emacs has been around for decades and will be around for decades more.
I wholeheartedly agree! But, I am at least somewhat concerned when it comes to its ‘gravitational pull from afar’. To me at least, it seems as if, currently, Neovim does a better job at attracting new people. Perhaps these are just mostly refugees from Vim. Nonetheless, it can’t be ignored (I think). Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this?
Use anything you want, because all of them are safe and speedy.
Flatpaks allow packaging together all dependencies with specific versions with the package. Snaps take it to the next level by allowing to run system integrated sandboxed programs, because Flatpaks cannot have system integration. Appimages are simply the equivalent of portable USB software on Windows.
That is not how it works though, because I have been a part of these religious cults for basically forever. The hobbyist enthusiasm has a threshold, the cultism does not. It is animalistic nature to form and live as tribes. It does not become different just because the congregation tool is virtual instead of real.
Capitalism is not human nature. It is formulated around abuse of human psychology. The documentary Century Of The Self by Adam Curtis will be something you love.
Except Western imperialist countries have exploited hundreds of trillions of dollars from rest of the world, kept them subjugated for centuries, causing these luxurious software development cultures to not formulate in them. You are falsely equating software and politics being affected similarly and to a similar degree.
If the computer was purchased in 2016 the license key is likely tied to the motherboard from the factory, so unless you swap the board, the original key may pull on its own.
“You can simply remove the appraiserres.dll file in the Windows 11 ISO file to make the Setup avoid these checks and install Windows 11 on any unsupported hardware too.” From the following article: nerdschalk.com/how-to-use-rufus-to-disable-tpm-an…
That sounds hard, but Rufus made this easy. Just select the right option. So just use Rufus to create the install usb: rufus.ie/en/#
This also allows local accounts, and disables all the tracking bullshit with a single click each.
Would be cool if Microsoft launched a new fangled cloud operating system, they’ve already got Bing AI, Onedrive, GitHub on the side and other infrastructure in place already.
Offering a Microsoft centered cloud computing operating system would allow them to dump or discard their other investments like GitHub, while holding both the money and infrastructure to competing against their old pals working with Linux and other GNU stuff.
The ultimate betrayal I tell ya hahaha 🤣
Nah just jokes, I would suck at writing or doing white collar crime but I would sure hype it up in an action novel alright
Hi. I’ve briefly shared my experience with neo(vim) and emacs here. Going into all the details would require writing an encyclopedia because they’re both so vast topics. I think the main factor of choice would be to know if you prefer to build your own perfect tool with just what you need and expand as you go (i.e. neovim) or just have a do-it-all ready tool right out of the box (i.e. emacs). Both will require some coding and maintenance anyway. In that regards, I personaly found neovim to be easier and more reliable but mileage may vary based on your needs and preferences. After years using vim 20 years ago, I made a break. Then I used emacs for a year before eventually going back to neovim. I would certainly recommend it vs vim and I would suggest starting from scratch (no lazyvim or similar) so you clearly understand how things work. This will certainly be useful in the long run anyway and that’ll eventually save you time. Note that I’ve also tried welcome screens (startup) but really couldn’t justify its use so I removed it after few months.
I’ve briefly shared my experience with neo(vim) and emacs here.
Thanks for sharing that! I’ve just read through it and it was a very interesting read. Would you mind elaborating upon the following statement?
“the lack of uniformity across plugins coding which sometimes created some conflicts”
I think the main factor of choice would be to know if you prefer to build your own perfect tool with just what you need and expand as you go (i.e. neovim) or just have a do-it-all ready tool right out of the box (i.e. emacs).
That is indeed something that concerns me regarding Emacs. Like being able to surf on the internet or using it as a email client isn’t quite what I expect out of my IDE 😅. I guess the extensibility should allow ‘minimal’ installations, but this is something I should read more into. Thanks for pointing that out!
My statement about the lack of uniformity was in regards to several issues I had with some plugins in emacs. Even my friend who codes his own plugins for emacs was of no help because 1) there is too many approaches and dependencies to write plugins, 2) there was no solution. Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them. At least twice I also experienced conflicts between plugins. Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim. Again, I can see why emacs is appealing to some. It’s just not for me. As I like to say, the number of options available in the Linux world is one of the most beautiful things that makes this OS the only one you can tweak perfectly to any user’s needs and preference.
I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.
I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts. As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
Also, there are too many plugins to serve the same purpose and I found it difficult (compared to neovim) to figure out the difference between them.
Interesting.
Finally, the level of customization was also less granular than what offers neovim.
Very interesting. I’d love to hear more about this. Could you elaborate?
I would add that neovim and emacs both have a steep learning curve but I personaly found the level of support and core and plugins documentation for neovim more accessible, readable, and better organized.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is in part attributable to the fact that Emacs is both an older project and is generally-speaking a bigger and/or more capable piece of software.
I completely share your vision about what an IDE should be doing. I’m old school and adhere to the “do one thing but do it right” philosophy. Also, I hate relying on one tool for several needs because if anything goes wrong it has multiple impacts.
I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.
As a side note, I use neomutt as my email client and you can nicely couple neovim to it to write your emails ;)
Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.
I’ve often heard Emacs users pose the argument that Emacs as an Elisp interpreter does just one thing. It’s just that this single thing allows the myriad of functionality it offers. So in that sense comparing it to a terminal/console seems more apt than comparing it to a text editor. I wonder what you think of that argument.
I only used emacs for a year so I may be wrong but speaking only about how I used it and my current workflow I don’t see a difference. Looking at the usage (and not the code), my very first impression of emacs was that it’s acting as a terminal multiplexer which I was used to and so I liked this aspect. Anytime you need to do something that goes beyond the tasks of an IDE (calendar, email…) you switch window/panel (I’ve always been confused with the specific emacs terminology). That’s exactly what I’m doing with Tmux where I run neovim and call other apps with a single keybinding. Then I can freely switch from one to another, close one, recall it in the state I’ve closed it…
Again, this is related to the philosophies of emacs and neovim (i.e. do-it-all or do one thing). While neovim is “only” an IDE, emacs goes beyond, and for me this is not a negative criticism of either app. You build a tool with the coding language you need to implement some functionalities. In that sense, to compare apple to apple, emacs has to be compared to neovim coupled to a terminal multiplexer.
Hehe, that’s cool! Currently I’m really happy with Thunderbird so I don’t expect to move away anytime soon, but I’ll keep it in mind.
I used Thunderbird as well and did the switch mainly to allow me to achieve the workflow described above. I do most of my tasks in the terminal. Neomutt would certainly be one additional layer of complexity in your transition to an IDE, unless you chose to use emacs for your emails. Actually configuring emacs as an email client or going with neomutt is pretty similar. But at the end - and this is an example of the higher level of granularity I mentioned earlier - neomutt is more customizable.
Talking about the level of customization of the IDE functionality only, the plugins I use offer more configuration options in neovim as well.
Orgmode is also one (the?) big star player in emacs and neovim is trying to attract some users by developing a similar thing here or there but this is not something that would benefit to my workflow. This is maybe one of the reason why people choose emacs vs neovim and why I could quit emacs easily. Going back to the coding language, you can see that the use of lua opens new doors to the original vim. What I appreciate though is that you don’t have to implement any features if you don’t use them in neovim so I can keep my system limited to my needs. This is also seen as a bad thing by some when you start because emacs is capable of quite a lot with a fresh installation while neovim can barely open itself ;)
Overall we’re all sharing personal experience so no generalization should be extrapolated from single visions and I’m aware of my own bias and preference for singl- task, lightweight, fast tool.
I’m so grateful for the time it took you to write this down. Thank you so much for your contributions in this conversation! I’ve greatly enjoyed reading every one of your replies. While I am currently not in the state to make any promises related to sticking to Neovim in the long run. I do think that I’m at least very interested to explore its possibilities. Have a good one! Cheers!
It’s always difficult to find a good starting point but remember that you’re not married to your apps so you can easily switch from one to another and maybe come back later. Over the years, I’ve seen most of Linux users going that route because 1) it’s fun and you learn a little bit from each experience, 2) Linux users are generally curious, 3) some apps may be more suitable to your workflow at a given time but your workflow may change over time, 4) Linux offers us so many options so it’s like unleashing kids in a toys store, you want to try everything :)
Yup, I think you’ve hit the nail on its head. I’ve decided on using both and explore their possibilities and find how they can be best utilized for my workflow. Thank you for the excellent engagement!
Nvim is more optimised, while emacs is more extensible. Basically you can modify core parts of emacs while it runs. I tend to use both, depending on the situation, with a lighter nvim config. Sometimes the 3 second emacs startup time is annoying so I use vim then. I think its fine to try both.
Regarding emacs declining popularity, I think that in the long term it could be a problem, since most people don’t want to learn elisp just to configure their editor. Elisp is very powerful in emacs, but its design is very different to other languages, so as emacs contributors get older, it could possibly lead to less and less new contributors.
Idk about the vim distros, but I think Doom Emacs is easier for beginners to get into.
Sometimes the 3 second emacs startup time is annoying so I use vim then.
The way I get around this is by using emacs in daemon mode. So it only has a long startup if I’ve just rebooted my computer or if I needed to change my config and manually restart emacs. You probably already know emacs can run as a daemon, but I thought I’d mention it anyway!
I tend to use both, depending on the situation, with a lighter nvim config. Sometimes the 3 second emacs startup time is annoying so I use vim then. I think its fine to try both.
Could you elaborate more upon your workflow? Like, in which situation do you prefer Emacs and when do you prefer Neovim? I get that the lighter option is preferred when you want to perform a quick edit or can’t be bothered with startup time. But I want to know it beyond that and -if possible- what led you to favor one over the other in each situation.
Regarding emacs declining popularity, I think that in the long term it could be a problem, since most people don’t want to learn elisp just to configure their editor. Elisp is very powerful in emacs, but its design is very different to other languages, so as emacs contributors get older, it could possibly lead to less and less new contributors.
How do you envision Emacs’ future? Would, at some moment in the future, some kind of compatibility layer of sorts be developed that lower the entrance barrier? To my knowledge, Emacs has -contrary to Vim- been more open to community development. So I don’t expect something like NeoVim to be developed for Emacs as there’s less need for it. But I don’t know how much they’d be willing to change Emacs for the sake of making it more attractive for new users.
Idk about the vim distros, but I think Doom Emacs is easier for beginners to get into.
Compared to Spacemacs I assume*. If so, would you mind elaborating?
I’m not using lsp in Neovim so if I need lsp I’ll just pull out emacs. If I’m already in the terminal I’ll usually pull out Neovim to edit a file, but if I’m writing like markdown or something that uses images I like the ability to display images inline in emacs. LaTeX is always something I do in emacs because there’s a built in pdf viewer in emacs and there’s built in spell check also. In the terminal in emacs, sometimes I open up Neovim to do a quick edit because of muscle memory from the terminal. One thing that’s really cool about Neovim is that you can embed it in other applications, so if I really have to use an ide that’s not emacs, I’ll just do that.
I don’t use Neovim for complex tasks, because personally I find it a bit hard to discover commands compared to emacs. The menubar in emacs is really useful for finding useful commands in different major and minor modes.
Yeah there’s a thing called EAF, which allows python and javascript to be embedded in emacs. It allows for more complex applications to be built in emacs, similar to VSCode. I’m not sure how difficult it is to make something with EAF, but I haven’t really seen any things written in it that aren’t in the EAF organization. I think the future could be EAF or maybe something like EAF to be able to leverage the power of the javascript ecosystem like how VSCode does for a lot of plugins. There have been some attempts to rewrite emacs in different languages, but emacs is too large, and you would lose the old ecosystem by doing that.
There’s a larger community around Doom Emacs, and Doom Emacs looks nicer. Honestly though it doesn’t matter that much which one you use since they are both pretty good.
I’m not using lsp in Neovim so if I need lsp I’ll just pull out emacs. If I’m already in the terminal I’ll usually pull out Neovim to edit a file, but if I’m writing like markdown or something that uses images I like the ability to display images inline in emacs. LaTeX is always something I do in emacs because there’s a built in pdf viewer in emacs and there’s built in spell check also. In the terminal in emacs, sometimes I open up Neovim to do a quick edit because of muscle memory from the terminal. One thing that’s really cool about Neovim is that you can embed it in other applications, so if I really have to use an ide that’s not emacs, I’ll just do that.
Wow, the insights! Vehemently noting these down somewhereHeck, I think you’ve cracked the code. Since I’ve created these posts, I became more and more aware of how great both Emacs and (Neo)Vim are. And while I was already flirting with the idea to perhaps use both, I think you’ve just completely obliterated any other option; which is a good thing. As such, I’m actually grasping for words that would somehow be able to properly convey the feelings of gratitude I currently experience. For whatever it’s worth; thank you from the bottom of my heart!
Yeah there’s a thing called EAF, which allows python and javascript to be embedded in emacs. It allows for more complex applications to be built in emacs, similar to VSCode. I’m not sure how difficult it is to make something with EAF, but I haven’t really seen any things written in it that aren’t in the EAF organization. I think the future could be EAF or maybe something like EAF to be able to leverage the power of the javascript ecosystem like how VSCode does for a lot of plugins. There have been some attempts to rewrite emacs in different languages, but emacs is too large, and you would lose the old ecosystem by doing that.
Once more; much appreciated!
There’s a larger community around Doom Emacs, and Doom Emacs looks nicer. Honestly though it doesn’t matter that much which one you use since they are both pretty good.
Yet again; I’m grateful! Have a good one! I wish you and your loved ones the best!
The average consumer isn’t going to toss out a good computer they bought if it can’t run Windows 11. They’re certainly not installing Linux. They’ll keep using Windows 10 for as long as they can. I’ve seen way too much of Windows XP still running on people’s computers, if it can still browse the web, access emails and look at Facebook they’re not spending money on a new one
Good point. What about hardware drivers? Do the OEMs use OS support deprecation, as an excuse to bail on shit? Or are driver updates irrelevant to a dead OS bc it’s in stasis?
My though was their preferred stenography keyboard was made by a company that is now defunct, ergo no updates. Possibly could be overcome with techy means, but I’m guessing the stenographer doesn’t have those.
I mean stopping Windows updates is really more a win than a loss half the time. They’ve forcefully installed so much of the shitware in Windows 10 updates that makes Windows 11 awful. It took me an hour to strip all the bullshit off of my partner’s Windows 10 that he left to auto-update.
Auto update has been a pain in the arse. Was doing a presentation for a group assignment with a Windows user and just before we were about to go up the thing just decided on a whim to install an update. Funnily enough he said he wanted to try Linux after that
It’s actually astonishing to me how much better Linux deals with updates compared to macOS and Windows. “Oh, updates are installed, and you just need to restart whatever I updated if it’s currently running.”
Sometimes it does have its moments though, like when it updates some core package and changes its config in such a way that the next boot doesn’t go into a GUI, but I think it’s also fair to point out Windows has had those too. And macOS High Sierra with the performance and security issues it initially had on release won’t go unmentioned by me either.
Agreed. There usually needs to be a big demand for a shift. Kind of like with Android development. Things tend to slow down once they run out of good ideas.
For Microsoft I think the next big move could be for a whole solar system calendar, e.g. symmetry 454, then synchronise that with a local family/group calendars, social events integration etc, throw in something like bing coin, then throwing it all into a big new multi compatible platform available to all of XP, 7, 10 and 11, add some games shit in there to compete with steam deck, then throw in some hardware CPU cooling accessories to prop up the trash software until they spend the next ten years updating like Lenovo bridge, it so that they can let optimizing their software enough to not fuck things up.
As for how the hell they plan on making money from it all, I suspect that the accessories will eventually lead to subscription costs for certain OEM support. This will encourage OEM manufacturers to engage directly with consumers and retailers to invest in the recycling process so that they can jack up prices across the board.
Use this money to add their shit into some NASA computers for extra hype. No big long term plan, just getting their logo and their foot in the door with the next big direction for computing lol
Usually projects on github. Personally I use Appimages for things like Mypaint a digital drawing application, krita and most other KDE applications as to avoid all the dependency’s KDE has in its eco system or at least to put them somewhere easier to manage
I have a cache drive in my NAS for reads, thinking about putting a second drive in there so I can have a read/write cache array. It makes a huge difference over just having spinning rust. I’d love an all-flash array, but 36TB of SSD would be very expensive right now.
Note to others reading this: If your main use case is gaming (or anything other than storing/processing buttloads of data), I’d suggest just getting a bigger pcie3 drive instead of a faster pcie4/5 drive. Going with a faster drive won’t be a noticeable difference, but having 2-3x the capacity (for the same price) will help.
Interesting read, love stuff like this but it seems they’d be a lot of dev overhead to truly make something large and agnostic but still gotta commend it!
When installing gnome using apt it should prompt you at some point which display manager (aka login screen) you want to use. Just choose the one that’s not gdm and your login screen wont change. Generally its easy to install a new desktop. Just do “sudo apt install the_desktop_environment” and change the chosen desktop environment on your login screen when logging in (there should be some slider or button for that).
if you’re trying out one or more than one DE I suggest making a new user for it, I’ve accidently messed up my dotfiles more times while DE hopping than I’d like to recall
is there an easy way to transfer files from user to user? is there a way to delete other users easily? i will definitely do this, so thanks for the suggestion! do you know any resources about this i could consult?
as a root user you can move files around no problem, I’m sure there’s desktop environment hopping articles to refer to, deleting is pretty straightforward too. for my case when I added i3 and hyprland I just tried flipping between the different desktops on a new user to see if anything broke before doing it on my main account, just something I have a habit of doing after some old mishaps
You: It’s a single user system
Also you: Tmpfs would have to be done for every user
And a /tmp/ symlink would have to be created for every user too, so I don’t get your point
Tmpfs is just as easy as making a symlink, but without the filename conflicts between files in ~/.config/ and /tmp/. You just need to add a line to /etc/fstab
<span style="color:#323232;">find /home/ -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type d -exec mount none {}/.cache/ -t tmpfs -o size=16G </span><span style="color:#0086b3;">;
</span>
for doesn’t work here because it uses spaces to delimit strings, which could cause issues with filenames that contain spaces
You can also create a systemd user service, which is useful if you don’t have root access. The above mount command requires root, but the following doesn’t and is more robust than symlinking to /tmp/:
Isn’t most of what’s in there just filters downloaded from the internet? Python packages, browser cache, etc? Your system confirms you to redownloading everything all the time, no?
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