My CW gets to work at 630 am despite having absolutely no reason to do so as the role she does doesn’t start until 8 and she’s just there to check people in, and stays late to sanitize her desk every day. I wander in at 829 and clock out at 423. Fuck it. I’m in a union for a reason.
What is this anti worker propaganda on .ml? Your fellow worker is brainwashed by the capitalist state and instead of seeking to build solidarity with them you mock them? How about sympathizing with their excessive workload and likely lacking compensation and eventually introducing that a different system would not require that from them?
Also, it is a time management issue, on a cultural level. Try getting Germans to stay past their shift they’ll tell you to get better at managing. Not their department, not their problem.
Thinking “fixing this requires a socialist revolution” honestly is part of the problem: Organise to fix the issue, there, workers will see that issues can be fixed, fix more that comes up, and they’ll both be emboldened and educated about their strength. Foreplay before sex.
The fact that you suggest it’s a cultural issue and then state it can be rectified by organizing is exactly my point. This person is essentially shaming the individual worker for falling prey to a cultural and systemic problem.
I never said we need a socialist revolution. In this context I left system open ended, but you can’t effectively organize anything with people you’re hostile to and unwilling to build solidarity with. I don’t think a socialist revolution is likely or even necessary, but more empathy is. The OP sentiment is not foreplay, it’s outright rejection. It seems like we are actually in agreement.
Shame is not as effective as offering support, especially since the root cause of the behavior is not necessarily in the persons control. Working additional hours might be seen as a requirement in some fields, so you might be shaming them into not talking about the issue, but the best way to actually solve the problem would likely be to empathize with them and change their perspective.
If someone is in an abusive relationship and they mention the abuse to someone, shaming them for being in that relationship and subjecting themselves to that behavior is unlikely to fix anything. Offering them compassion and support and safe alternatives is demonstrably more effective. Shame is likely to make them more defensive about their choices or stop talking about the abuse they suffer entirely, especially if the issue is not entirely in their control. I think similar behavior and responses would be elicited in the case of working relationships as well. 
You’re talking individual, not group psychology. Chances are that in a group someone will laugh, others chuckle, and the person directly addressed will not be individually offended because you made a joke. Deflated, maybe, yes, but that’s par for the course when bragging. Which is what OP’s post talks about. If you go all “dear, dear” on people doing that they’ll definitely be offended.
Is the slave comment supposed to imply that I might be working more than I should? I’m literally saying it’s a bad thing that it happens but we should be sympathetic to people who don’t yet realize that and show them that they are being exploited. I don’t see how this is funny, as there is no punchline or set up or anything. I don’t think everyone needs to agree about comedy but I was sharing my opinion on this sentiment.
The issue is that the criticism is generally not valid. If you’re criticizing a colleague for poor time management because they legitimately have poor time management, fine, whatever. It’s not something I would do, but there may be cases in which that is done. In the context of this meme, it is likely not the individuals fault that they are overworked. It is likely a systemic failure that foists too many tasks on each individual worker. Generally, the people “bragging” about working additional hours are not poor performing employees, but people that are dedicated to their job or the company, and believe that the additional hours will help them advance their careers. Approaching it from a place of “if you are a good worker, they should treat you better, not worse” rather than shaming the individual is most likely to help them see the issue with that sentiment. Also, I’m pretty sure it was just a spelling error, but just to be clear I believe this is anti-worker, not anti-work.
This of course refers mostly to salaried workers, as, at least in the us, hourly gets overtime pay at 1.5x normal pay. Up to an extent, many workers appreciate the extra pay.
Not always though, as even then, some companies want lower workforce, and will work them half to death.
Appreciate you adding that last sentence, but ideally no one would work more even for additional pay. People need time to recuperate and enjoy life and in the current system often just getting by requires overtime pay. I’ve worked in both types of positions, and though I’m glad overtime and holiday pay exist in our current system, often the people working more or over the holidays are the most desperate or marginalized.
I think the OP sentiment was directed towards salaried workers because I’ve basically never heard hourly workers talk about it in this way or context. I think the reason salaried employees brag about long hours is largely due to the fact that they might not be getting additional compensation so are at least trying to get social capital in exchange for their time.
“Not normalizing” comes in many forms and this one seems hostile to fellow workers. Approaching it from a place of empathy is far more likely to help than a place of blame. It’s not the workers fault. It’s a systemic problem and the first step to helping someone realize that is to open their eyes to the fact that they are struggling for no reason other than that the institution demands it, not that they are the problem.
My coworkers give me shit for not working late all the time. Like, I work late when I absolutely have to or get permission to make up missed time. I refuse to stay just because lol.
At my last job, I would clock-watch like a kid in school and bolt out of there when it got to be 5. No fucking way was I staying there any longer than I had to.
Soon I’m going to be part of our safety management team, I respect this type of attitude. I don’t want all of our employees being exhausted all day, that’s dangerous. Go home, get rest, relax, come back 100% tomorrow. Any other attitude is unsustainable and irresponsible. I do appreciate the need to SOMETIMES work overtime. I’d really like to understand the positive feedback loop that’s involved with excessive overtime but that’s not my specific field of study.
I had someone boast that they had all their vacation days at the end of the year because they were so “devoted”. I just said it seems they have bad time management since this time off was included in schedules.
Make sure you highlight this in your one on one discussions with your manager and get compensated. You’re doing two jobs- your employer should not be taking advantage of you. Get paid my friend.
I honestly work at a company that would fit most ideals for the average anti-work/work-reform subscriber.
Unlimited PTO, with minimum PTO usage requirements. Free medical. They pay for my gym membership. They pay for tampons for my household. Full time remote. I hold equity in the company. Annual performance bonuses. And they disclose the financials of just about everything to employees. It’s pretty wild
For me, it’s very much cyclical: when there is a project going, there are so many people counting on you that pretty much every minute counts, and the cost of mistakes is always high. It’s during these times that time management skill is critical and you need people on the team who’s job is to manage everybody’s time and make sure things gets done, but even with that, the long hours are unavoidable. I don’t think it’s something to brag about, it’s the nature of the job.
But when there is no project going, it feels like there is really not much to do all day, sometimes even the task of finding things to do is a struggle, so you do whatever you want until the next project starts.
Better yet, offer to help them with their time management. That way, it’s a positive and friendly offer, not an overt criticism. And it jams in a little more condescension.
What about people that complain about how long they work (yeah, I do have some suboptimal time management skills, and I’m a little sensitive about it)?
Here’s my view as an executive, if my folks regularly add hours to their day/week to get their job done they’re not good at their job. If they’re good at their job they know how to prioritize and they also know how to optimize and automate constantly so they can do more with less. They also do their form of zero base reporting or zero base budgeting constantly to get rid of what was once important that no longer is.
To be fair in senior leadership a 40 hour week probably isn’t going to happen but you should swing between 55 hours and 30 hours depending on the week and average it to the mid to high 40s.
I suspect this isn’t going to be a popular post, and I accept your down votes but would also like to hear your contrary view along with it if you don’t mind.
I’d say there’s also something to be said about an overbearing workload. If everyone is constantly struggling to get things done in time then more staff could be needed. But yeah, if it’s the same ones over and over and only them, then investigating why makes sense.
Mostly irregularity of what needs to happen. Some weeks everything you can imagine needs to happen now, other weeks not much needs to happen. I’ve learned not to shove my slow weeks with irrelevant busy work so I can ebb and flow with the work.
Last week with this SaaS implementation I was so busy I couldn’t see straight. Right now I’m chilling on Lemmy and thinking about what other famous movie scenes I can enhance with Muppets lol.
Agreed! Luckily they’re fairly easy to replace as long as you don’t build systems that won’t allow them to fail.
A decade or more before COVID my favorite tool was to let everyone work from home. Those that sucked at their job wouldn’t get anything done. HR would just ask we bring them all in and I’d refuse. If they can’t be trusted to work without supervision they can’t be trusted to work with it.
Now keep in mind we have to be reasonable people and not driving our people beyond reasonableness.
Now keep in mind we have to be reasonable people and not driving our people beyond reasonableness.
Ditch your suite, and go into executive exclusive consultancy.
Just paraphrase the quoted section for each individual thick skull, and maybe teach them that softening the skin around your eyes and giving the beleaguered high performers bringing feedback a knowing look doesn’t violate business needs.
Then you won’t have to worry about posts starting with “as an executive” going wrong.
Well, no not really, but I know a board that needs to internalize that sentiment.
The problem is you need a executive body that already agrees with you to select you from their choices of consultant. We’re not rational creatures and are our personal biases make it so we’re more likely to hire the consultant that reflects our preconceived ideas
I’m not sure why you got a down vote for saying someone should help change the whole system but here is an up vote to help fix it.
And bottom line that won’t work. It won’t because American organizations are dictatorships and dictatorships always end up that way. I do what I can to fight it but I know my efforts have limited impact outside of my departments.
For some “light” reading, try The Doctors Handbook and Cultish. Both amazing books that do a great job outlining why the systems work the way they do and changing the system is what’s needed to change the default output.
Germany to an extent and some Nordic countries do a good job of this on paper. I can’t say I’ve read enough to speak intelligently about their solutions though.
I can see that you’re engaging thoughtfully and in good faith, but that’s a pretty glaring omission from your original post.
Even in organizations that are healthy in many ways for most people, there can still be people who are stretched thin and don’t feel empowered to throttle their workload for whatever reason.
Culture for most people begins and ends at their boss. And if they don’t feel empowered it’s often because of their boss and the culture their boss creates.
This topic like most are more nuanced than this, sometimes it’s that person’s own history and issues and not the bosses, like maybe past locations are childhood and so on. But this things aren’t really something a boss can do anything about. The boss is responsible for creating a healthy environment that encourages healthy boundaries and the measurement is that they are getting the results from the majority of the people the majority of the time.
Is the measurement that they’re getting the results, or is it that they aren’t working extra hours? “Getting the results from the majority of the people the majority of the time” is exactly how I’d expect an executive to handwave employees burning out due to the kind of environment we’re talking about. Not everybody is going to manifest visible problems at the same time, so it will just look like a handful “not working out” every once in awhile, which is to be expected.
It could describe a healthy environment equally well… But my point is just that your formulation (“Results from the majority of the people the majority of the time”) doesn’t seem to me to have the ability to distinguish between a healthy and a toxic environment.
The phrase applies to negative results not positive ones because the rest of the phrase is it’s not the people it’s the system which implies a problem not a good result. Going through all the details of the system is more than I’m willing to type. If you’d like to know more these are a few of my favorite resources.
Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you. I’m used to “getting results” as referring to achieving measurable business objectives, but the meaning changes completely if you meant the opposite, and I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying in that case.
Thanks for the recommendations. I will look at those.
It’s a swing, see, 30 - 55. In 2023 I averaged 46 hours a week with a low of 30 hours and a high of 57 hours. That’s excluding the 5 partial weeks due to PTO and the full weeks off due to PTO and holiday weeks. I feel this for me is a healthy amount.
But also you mention the petty tyrants, keep in mind they demand from us what they voluntarily give. When executives associate dedication with 45 hours week averages they demand we show dedication too.
I think there’s something serious to be said for even executives attempting to move all of our society towards a shorter work week. Though I acknowledge that that doesn’t fall into something any one person can do. I also am not sure whether it’s more likely to arrive top down or bottom up.
I think this is a great point. One thing I haven’t mentioned is I’m clear with my folks if it only takes 20 hours to get the job done they can do whatever they want with the rest of the time, they’re exempt afterall. I’ve only had one person fully take me up on it and he was referred to as 7’ Jesus. To be clear he was 6’6” but I guess rounding was fine. And he only worked about 25 hours a week for me but killed it with what I needed and was happy.
Most people work about what I do but they know they can take time for themselves wherever and regularly do.
One person has a new born and doing half Fridays for the foreseeable future which I think is great. I encouraged more but that’s all she wants.
If you want to put in more time, thats on you obviously. But I see CEO/CFO and othe4 senior management doing 40, and employees doing the same. it has to be driven top down as a culture. Thankfully I’m in BC so management/salary gets extra hours paid, but I still don’t want them.
Free advice: Don’t do unpayed overtime and it will regulate itself. I work 36h/week and if there was too much work planned for me in a 2 week sprint I use the overtime to get a free Friday now and then.
Everything above 40h/week is unhealthy, at least for me, it is! In the near future I will ask for 32h/week; had that in a previous job and it was fantastic.
I sort of do that and have most of my career with my people. If I’m aware they’ve put in a bunch of hours I’ll ask them to take time off on me. I’m sure I’m not always aware and I know it’s against company policy but I’ve never been busted for it. But I don’t make it an official policy just to stay on the safe side of company policy. I’m sure if someone found out and complained I’d not be able to do it anymore.
Do you brag about your long hours, or do you complain about the lack of predictability from management? Only the former matches the statement in the quote.
Some take my bitching and moaning that I was up all night working on ____ because the project is a complete mess and they wanted it today as “bragging”.
Its performance review time, i hate myself and rent is expensive.
I always wondered how bragging about how long you worked was considered by some as a good thing. The “higher ups” must have used some fancy tricks to get people to think that way. It never worked on me though :)
Management was handing out bullshit busywork recently, and some people were complaining. Then some guy was like “they pay my salary, so I do whatever they want!”
What kind of bullshit wage slave mentality is that? I am the vendor in this scenario, my employer is paying for the privilege of using my services. There can be terms and conditions from both parties of that deal, and if they’re incompatible the deal is off.
Ah I have the attitude of “you’re free to pay me engineer money to do this, but I’m leaving at 4 whether I was productive or doing weird bullshit you decided on.“
Sure, if there’s a business need for cleaning the office toilets I’ll stop coding and do it for a day.
In this case it’s “everyone needs to spend a few weeks getting points in the training portal, we don’t care what you do in there as long as you get points”. This clearly doesn’t fulfill any business need, people just do whatever BS is the least effort per point. And as you might expect from an internal training portal, spending 20 minutes in that thing makes me want to stab myself.
Again, if there’s a business need for it that’s a different story, but useless mandates just to jerk people around are a deal breaker.
Ok that’s fair. I’m an engineer and I’ve told my line workers consistently that I’ll never ask them to do something I wouldn’t be willing to do, and at times I do have to help out because shit happens when you’ve got a skeleton crew. Hell I spend some days fabricating my designs.
And yeah I’d love good training. Teaching me actionable skills. Or just send me to grad school or give me a subscription to my professional organization and let me read their magazine on the job. Hell, throw IEEE in there, they’ve always got something to say. But no I’ve spent days doing the training portal bullshit on everything from “here’s how to deal with the fact that technically you’re an arms trafficker, don’t do treason and don’t think about how you’re a legitimate military target” to “watch a too damn long video about workplace sexual harassment that was clearly not written by anyone who’s ever seen a factory floor” and it just made me want to bash my brain in.
See, those are needed for compliance/CYA. That has business value, so I can work with that. What I’m referring to here is just training on useless stuff for the sake of racking up points.
I never thought about this before, but if I worked somewhere and they gave me an ‘employee of the month’ award, it would piss me off because it would make me feel like I was being a kissass somehow.
I think people believe it is a sign you are striving to excel or that you care about the work you are doing.
In my case I think I talk about how much overtime I work because I got insecurities about my productivity drilled into me as a child with undiagnosed ADHD. Constantly being told you don’t work hard enough regardless of the effort you put in will give you some weird hangups. I think subconsciously its about needing external validation that the time you put in was adequate, or insecurity around ‘work ethic’
I can relate to that. I’m extremely glad I broke that habit. They told me when they needed me. I did what needed to be done within reasonable expectations. My failure past that point is on workload
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