I don’t know how much I trust AEI’s motivation, methods or conclusions. The same survey also shows gen z are much less likely to go to church, less likely to drink and smoke, less likely to have a girlfriend/boyfriend…and gen x and boomers are more likely to do all of that. Is it true? Probably. But when you are asking a 19 year old and a 59 year old the same question…how do you even calculate what the answer means?
Currently Gen Z included aa young as 11. Are they polling 13 year olds? Because I definitely give zero shits what 13 year old boys think.
Yes I’m joking because the very premise of comparing the age groups with specific questions is problematic. “Are you a feminist” doesn’t mean the same thing to someone born in 2002 as it does someone born in 1972.
If you ask me…a 40-something man, I say yes I’m a feminist because I want you to know I am an ally and support women. If you ask a 16 year old, I would doubt the word means much to them at all. But I bet they will be more supportive of women than our generation anyway.
Language changes with time, not with birth year. While someone born in 1972 certainly has much more life experience and context than someone born in 2002, the question today will mean approximately the same thing to both.
Not really, no. People aren’t working off some master database of language that pushes updates out universally. They’re working from their own understanding based on their own life experiences. Someone born in 1973 will have a very different socialization and bundle of personal experiences than someone born in 2002.
I’ve known several incels, and in my experience, their entitlement to sex is really just an extension of wanting to feel loved.
Men grow up in a near drought of love and physical affection. After about 5 years old, we can’t hug our best friends.
Then men are told that they will pick a blushing bride that will be everything to them.
And when that doesn’t work, they become bitter and don’t know what to do with the rejection, because they have shit coping skills and mix up their entitlement for love with an entitlement for sex.
It’s a mess. I’m not absolving the incels of their shitty behaviour, but I’m also not going to say that “they deserve to feel unloved”
But I think the solution starts with recognizing that the incels actually want love. In my experience, women want to feel loved, and THEN trust you physically with sex. This makes sense because the physical danger for women is very real. Men seem to do it backwards. They want to get physical first and then trust you with love, since emotional danger is very real to them.
Anyways I’ll stop rambling, this is a mix of facts and personal experiences, but I really stand by the general point.
Thanks, I go through great pains to try and truly understand issues rather than “grab the pitchforks”
It’s all too easy to see someone as evil, rather than just a person hurting. Once you see the hurt, you have to be careful not to go all “bleeding heart” and excuse their crimes.
INCELS need to realise their problems stem from needing to be loved. It’s not anyone else’s job to understand them and fix their lives FOR them. But we can help them understand insofar as they’re willing to learn.
The second thing they and all of us need to realise is that we can’t get ALL our love from romantic partners. That puts a HUGE burden on the relationship. We need to learn how to share platonic love again. That’s what’s breaking us men. If we can’t learn to love eachother without toxic masculinity telling us it’s “gay” or whatever, then we’re doomed to losing men to loneliness, despair, and inceldom.
This is the men’s revolution that’s needed. The feminist revolution came, and was absolutely necessary, and now we need one for men. We didn’t keep up with the times.
Exactly right. The queer and feminist community made it acceptable to be whoever they want to be. Time for men to join the forces and do what makes them happy and to not what they think they have to. Remember that if someone else likes something different or hates something you love that doesn't diminish your enjoyment
I allow myself to spend 4 hours per year in the presence of my brother. I do it so my parents can have the family together for Christmas dinner. Other than that we have not communicated in 5 years.
The only real reason I can think to move is if your current instance is regularly down for extended periods or if a lot of other instances defederate it.
This sounds like the experience I was having in 1978. We ultimately had to switch back to more traditional roles because she just couldn’t earn enough money to support us, while it was trivial for me to do so, despite neither of us having postsecondary education.
I know social change is slow, but this is pathetic.
I think this makes some great point but doesn't talk enough about how the cultures makes sex exclusively about the conquest for men as well. There is almost no talk about intimacy or pleasure from the sex but rather if it was gotten at all. The overall goal is have sex. Its isn't pleasure focused for either party with the assumption is that the man ejaculates from PIV. The queer and kink communities have really focused on the entire aspects and emotions that sex can provide. This trickled into most sex positive books and most of the advice was geared to women to allow them to feel any sexual pleasure but is applicable for all genders.
I think most men understand that sex can provide multiple emotions at once but can't articulate what they need and how they get it outside of sex as well. We need to talk about how young men want love and that sex can be part of that. I highly recommend people look into kink and sex positive books to understand relationships and what sex can mean outside the traditional sexist narrative.
I just want to be loved. I am not looking a submissive woman. I don’t have a list of requirements. Is that so hard for people playing these stupid politics to understand. If the lady don’t know how to cook, I will. I am looking for a relationship, not a servant or slave.
Its real simple. It gives them identity and something to go after in a society that offers them nothing. So they get into woodworking, hunting, fighting, only eat meat for a while or some shit.
Males are expendable, the way that all people in capitalism are expendable. But to quote Babe from animal farm: Some are more expendable than others. Males have lower impulse control and have a biological more likely to engage in high risk/ high reward. Most white males are facing the same dilemmas and contradictions around the shittiness and meaninglessness of their existence as everyone else; every one else just doesn’t have a direct pipeline to radicalism engineered for them. For years YT has been trying to steer me down the white nationalist rabbit hole, in-spite of how unappologetically leftist the programing I consume is. I’m a bit older and I’ve been around and politically aware since I was a teen and made the impulsive decision to enlist, then months later we were invading Afghanistan and then Iraq.
This same issue plagues young men from all nationalities and walks of life, not just young white men in the US. We have to collectively find a way to give meaning to peoples lives or that innate search for meaning will be taken advantage of.
Well, considering dating takes at least 2 people (depending on how you live your life, and yes non-monagamy and polyamory are vaild), asking only one group is incredibly biased.
Please explain how this isn’t a bigoted point of view
Ms. Kearney, for example, acknowledges that improving men’s economic position, especially men without college degrees, is an important step toward making them more attractive partners.
This is why you’re not taken seriously. In other words you’ve shown how completely irrational you are. No point trying to have a rational conversation with someone so completely out of line and irrational.
What about all the unfuckable women? Again you look at everything one sided.
Both sexes need to get better. You’re saying that it’s all up to the men. In other words what you’re saying is women don’t have to be responsible for anything, they can act any way they want. A very entitled and selfish attitude.
Did you ever consider that this toxic mentality DRIVES AWAY the good men? Maybe good men want nothing to do with you because of your mentality. That leaves only the toxic men to put up with your bullshit, so that’s all you see.
They aren’t shooting up night clubs, marauding through cities, or lashing out violently out of sexual frustration and a lack of purpose.
Men are doing those things. Look, I get that ‘both sides’ impulse, but unfuckable women don’t pose an existential risk to society, and to be honest, women have to be pretty far gone to qualify as unfuckable.
Angry women aren’t as violent or dangerous as angry men, and the social validation most men are cultured to seek through income, physical prowess, and social success is not as accessible as it once was.
When I was little I noticed that all the father’s were just absent. It seemed to me then that the role of ‘dad’ had been demoted to a placeholder and was existentially diminished in terms of meaning and value. This has a deleterious effect on the sense of purpose of many young men, myself included, but it doesn’t have to define us.
Women are seizing an opportunity for their own self actualization from the oppressive society we live in to find purpose and meaning. Maybe some more men need to do the same.
The thing is no one is arguing that men don’t suck. Plenty of men out there are garbage.
What you’re glossing over is the fact that women have lots of issues as well. There is no shortage of psycho women with deep issues.
Go talk to a “good” man and get their perspective on dating. You’ll get a different picture and you’ll see women are chock full of their own issues. It’s just a different flavor.
The problem is you’ll never do that because you hate men and have no interest in a genuine conversation. Instead it’s all “woe is me, all men suck”.
If you can’t find a good man, it’s not that they don’t exist, but rather you don’t attract them. Maybe work on your attitude and you won’t come off as toxic with tons of baggage and maybe then they will give you a shot.
I like to think that I am a good man, and I know my girlfriend is a good woman.
I know that I wasn’t really ready for the seriousness of relationship some of my ex’s wanted with me and I had to grow up, but I also remember frustrations with some of them not being mature and self reliant enough to be a reliable partner.
I am very fortunate to be on good terms and friendly with many of my previous partners, and I’m lucky to have been in love several times in my life. I know I am a better person because of the love I have shared and that which has been shared with me.
I’ve seen shitty groups of women do things I thought only happened in strawman arguments, like protest a college club of minority men sharing legal and social resources relevant to their community because ‘mens rights is anti feminist’ or other nonsense. I have also seen men joke about vaginal credit card and bitch about their own odious unfuckablity in the same breath.
People can be shitty, that doesn’t mean you need to make assumptions about them. If you give most people a chance, they will tell you who they are.
The TLDR is that not every one sucks and some times you need to give people a chance.
No disagreement there, but I am not seeing how this aligns with the discussion we are having.
At the end of the day not everyone sucks. Putting all of the blame on one sex is disingenuous. Both men and women can be fucked up. There are plenty of good men struggling to find good women. There are plenty of good women struggling to find good men. The world is chock full of assholes for both sexes.
It works both ways but you’re only looking in one direction. Based on everything you said in your last post it sounds a lot like you agree with me, you just don’t want to admit it.
This is the definition of a strawman. You’re fitting an argument the other person never made.
Except this thread is chock full of you all doing this exact thing.
Listen, nothing will change that there are shitty men out there. Nothing will change that there are also shitty women out there. If you can’t find a decent guy it isn’t because they don’t exist, it’s because YOU aren’t attracting them. This is a YOU problem.
Biggest issue with the article. NO male voices, and it’s repeating the same lines I have heard since the mid 00’s.
Now I acknowledge that there hasn’t been much movement on the dating front, but men are only half the problem, as they are only half the population.
They would change in a hurry as a group if they needed to, but men aren’t a monolith and neither are women.
You want men to be better, be better yourself. The article is garbage by saying men need to step up while not talking to them about the issues they face in the dating world. ESPECIALLY if they aren’t Hetronormative.
An article that wonders why people aren’t getting married says they went out and only asked one side what the problem was. 🤔
Doesn’t even seem balanced…
Edit: as a romance favourable aroace, the dating world was a nightmare, even if you do everything “right”. Which is why I no longer look to find companionship.
Do better or not, there are garbage people in all genders and the prevailing “men bad” when it comes to dating is just as toxic as what the men are doing.
The article also doesn’t suggest any possible solutions.
After reading the article, I came away with the opinion that we should be doing away with all of the pageantry of holiday gatherings, and focus instead on the connections we’re tying to maintain.
But that’s really the thrust of the article, isn’t it? The fact that so many men seem to not care about the appearance and presentation is the problem in their eyes.
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