At what point does the world look at this and say that enough is enough.
Do we ever, really? Over the sum of all war-related humanitarian disasters, the West responds to very few of them, and only when it's economically or geopolitically useful. The Palestinian crisis is no different; it's not exceptional in any way. There's an ongoing nightmare in DRC that's orders of magnitude worse than what's happening in Gaza and... no one cares. Europe and the U.S. are on the verge of disengaging from Ukraine.
The thing is, it doesn't even matter if we "condemn this behavior." We could do that all we want and it wouldn't make much difference. And no one wants to be interventionist - there's too much awful history around it, and it smacks of colonialism, and it means taking resources away from "domestic issues" that always seem to matter more.
We've got to move away from the notion that the situation in Gaza is somehow unique. It allows us to conveniently ignore the root causes of the problem, which is much more universal, and stems from the ongoing sense of cultural superiority on the part of Europe and the U.S.
The reason Afganistan has had so much trouble with superpowers during the last few centuries is that they are an extremely important geographic location which would provide great strategic advantage to the power controlling them. That’s why American media has been trying to push the public to be sympathetic to a re-invasion until recently. Fortunately for Afganistan, they are very difficult to conquer for very long.
At this point it feels like Netanyahu has a checklist with 6 million boxes, and is checking them off as fast as possible so they can finally get even with Germany or something.
The authors mention the necessity of “creating ideological change” in the Palestinian population through a process of what it likens to “de-Nazification,” requiring Israel to “dictate the school curricula and enforce its use for an entire generation.”
Ah yes, the “de-Nazification” card… right after keeping a whole generation imprisoned under Hamas rule. How convenient. 😒
They're "de-nazifying" Palestine much the same way that Russia is "de-nazifying" Ukraine (ie - murdering tons of civilians with the express purpose of ethnic cleansing and area to steal land)
So genocidal slaughter then, sounds about what one would expect.
An invasion would bring heavy casualties on both sides and questions about whether Israel can devise an exit strategy for the conflict
I found this a bit amusing in a grim way, in what universe has Israel ever indicated that they have or want an exit plan from Gaza or apartheid occupation? They want to own Gaza/Palestine, theynow have an excuse to rampage and slaughter on a new level so they’re taking it.
If being attacked entitles one to retaliate with violence, then Israel has earned the attack that happened by miles.
There has been none of this kind of outrage when Israeli MPs and soldiers brutalize Palestinians, kill international reporters, bomb news stations and residential centers, indiscrimnately kill women and children.
If you don’t believe that violence warrants violent and wanton reprisal, then you should be against the Israelis laying siege to Gaza.
Here we go again, This is one of those justification posts. To which I always respond that there is no justification for the various atrocities committed by Hamas. To which you respond with something about Israeli oppression. To which I respond that it still doesn’t justify the vile and nasty nature of Hamas action and if your moral compass says it does I feel sorry for you. Then I slowly get bored with your inane ideology. Good. So that’s it.
Absolutely, all those dead Palestinian children, totally justified. It’s Israel that has the right to exist, if only someone would tell Palestinians that their kids come second maybe they’d finally shut up about them dying, huh? Getting so uppity about some collateral damage, about being blockaded without food, electricity or water, about being routinely bombed with no recourse.
No, I’m agreeing with you, these Palestinian children got what they deserved. Israel is justified in using their overwhelming power and control of the situation to punish all of Gaza. You convinced me.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.
If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They’ve refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.
Palestine is effectively an open air prison, it is occupied for all intents and purposes and Israelis have colonized progressively more and more land, regardless of any kind of empty political gestures.
Israel has a right to exist, not a right to run an apartheid state.
We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.
And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.
Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?
It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.^[statista.com/…/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-…]
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.^[www.hrw.org/…/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.^[aljazeera.com/…/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-p…]
It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this.<
That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You’re far from the only one who does it, it’s VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you’ll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it’s been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.
The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade<
How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven’t heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?<
Recognition of Hamas’ agency in this. Recognition of militants’ agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists’ agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.
Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?<
And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you’re accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.
Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they’re leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.
No. You’ve been wrong on so many points, including your assessments of me.
Your blockade comment above shows your lack of understanding of what I’ve written. This week’s atrocities from Hamas are the undeniable evidence of what the blockade had previously prevented. Very different. The blockade only exists because it is necessary to reduce Palestinian militants’ ability to slaughter Israelis. Some of those militants have shown you in undeniable terms how barbarously far they will go. That you were unaware of their intentions before Saturday doesn’t mean they sprang into being recently.
Yeah, you’re continuing to be clouded by emotion. I’ll stand by that.
Yes, the killing of civilians is never acceptable, which is why we should stand with Israel while they bomb kids.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.
Gaza is blockaded, the people cannot leave. It is a prison.
Don’t believe me, take it from the Israeli Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant:
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly.” (Source)
Is it any wonder the median age in Gaza is 18 years old when this is the attitude of Israeli’s towards the whole strip? Israel has the power in this situation, this is clear from the fact that they can literally cut off these critical supplies to the entire region at will. And this is how they use that power; to indiscriminately punish the people of Gaza.
So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?
Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.
Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.
But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.
How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.
So Israel is justified in punishing civilians indiscriminately, en mass, but the same brutality from Hamas is unacceptable to you. Think that over to yourself.
If what you’re arguing for Israel is true, that they have a right to starve and kill children because of an attack, then why have Palestinians no earned that right? What makes them lesser of human rights in your mind?
Perhaps Hamas should call all their brutality “unintentional” and that will make it ok in your eyes? “Whoopsie, precisely headshot a kid. It’s the terrorists fault.” If you’re willing to hold all of Gaza accountable for Hamas, why would all Israeli’s not be held accountable for their own brutal military? Israel is even supposedly a democracy.
These examples are from the last year, but this is not some new phenomenon. Israel has a long history of brutalizing the Palestinian people and assassinating any leaders that appear.
Imagine if Hamas went into a Jewish synagogue and treated people like this: [1], [2], [3], [4] But these are Israeli police heros fighting a brave battle against unarmed women and old men human animals, right?
How quickly was the murder of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh swept under the rug? An unarmed journalist, shot in the back of the head by IDF. No one gives a shit.
So as Gazans and Palestinians get starved and bombed out of existence over the course of decades, tell me why they have less human rights than what you afford Israelis? You cannot argue from a humanitarian perspective for Israel and then completely flip your script when it comes to the human rights of Palestinians. You cannot hold Palestinian children to account for the actions of Hamas and then not do the same for Israeli civilians and the IDF. And if that’s unpalatable to you, perhaps consider revising your blind support for Israel’s brutal apartheid tactics.
I don’t know why this topic breaks people’s brains so hard, people will just give Israel a complete blank check to literally do whatever they want for 60 years but as soon as their chickens come home to roost it’s the Palestinian civilians fault. Suddenly they simply won’t draw any kind of distinction between Hamas and literal children when it comes to who is justifiable to punish.
And then the only way anyone can address me raising these criticisms is to assert that I’m arguing Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. But who is actually at more of risk of being wiped off the face of the earth? The Israelis with their unlimited global support, wealth and Iron Dome? Or the Gazans who are trapped in Gaza and can literally have their vital resources cut off at a moments notice?
You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.
So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.
They haven’t.
Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.
But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.
I’m simply asking you to apply the same standards you apply to Palestine to Israel. You talk about an “impossible line” for Israel, how much more impossible is the situation for Palestinians? Israel has been demolishing homes, bombing entire apartment blocks and news stations, destroying crops, shooting women, children and unarmed reporters, raiding holy sites etc. they have been doing for decades exactly what Hamas has done but on an even larger scale with more money, support and military options and with far less humanitarian cost. And yet because it’s done under the “respectable” flag of a nation state it’s all excusable, all “bad apples”.
These stories I linked, how many have you honestly even heard of from the past year? They’re a blip on the radar. By contrast, every morning for the past week the attack in Israel has been the headline from NPR to Fox, all of them reporting western governments vowing support for Israel’s campaign to cut off aid and supplies to Gazans and invade to wipe the “human animals” out. There’s been a mobilization of hundreds of thousands of Israeli military personnel, Israeli airstrikes have killed 1,200 Gazans this week. That’s NPR this morning, not “jihadist propaganda”. You can’t just handwave away the reality of profound suffering in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli regime because it’s inconvenient when it comes to trying to justify Israel’s actions.
Israel has ten times the power here, and yet you’re willing to justify their brutality and apartheid as them having no choice, instead you act like Palestine has the power to resolve this while having no assumed right to retaliate themselves or even ability to move, negotiate or govern autonomously. It’s been close to a decade since Israel refused to negotiate with even the legitimate Palestinian leadership itself. How are you suppose to believe Israel has a genuine interest in peace?
Netanyahu is the one who funded Hamas, so Israel is literally the one that created this situation. And now as they bomb the already-bombed-out rubble of Gaza, how do you see that changing the hearts and minds of Palestinians? Peace has never been the goal for Israel, it’s about colonization and genocide. They have no interest in ever living alongside Palestinians (who have just as much a right to their homeland as anyone) or creating a unified state in which Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights. They’re never going to draw any distinction between Hamas and the people of Palestine, these recent events have proved that beyond any doubt.
Do they have the power to pursue peace? Yep. Will they ever? Nope. Israel either needs to leave occupied territory and remove all their settlers from Gaza and Palestine, or agree to grant Palestinians a true seat at the table as equals, not as a subclass relegated to an open air prison, not as “Hamas collaboraters” and collateral damage. This is Israel’s responsibility because, as we see, they have all the true territorial and military power here. Palestinians have none.
I’d challenge you to honestly ask yourself how would see this situation if the tables were turned, if it were a Hamas government oppressing a blockaded, starving Israeli population.
Peace has never been the goal for Israel, it’s about colonization and genocide. They have no interest in ever living alongside Palestinians<
WRONG.
They’re never going to draw any distinction between Hamas and the people of Palestine<
WRONG.
Israel either needs to leave occupied territory and remove all their settlers from Gaza<
ALL Israeli settlers WERE removed from Gaza in 2005. That’s a really big mistake to make. Can’t say I’m surprised though given how many other errors you’re making here.
This is Israel’s responsibility because, as we see, they have all the true territorial and military power here. Palestinians have none.<
WRONG. Palestinian extremists hold the most important card. And before them Arab extremists and the armies of Arab nations which refused to recognise the state of Israel. Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza didn’t bring peace. Nothing has. This crap that it’s entirely within Israel’s power ignores this reality. You have the luxury and safety to remain in that ignorance. Israelis don’t.
“Withdrawal” can be really misleading, here, because it was very much not disengagement aka leaving Gaza alone: The moved the prison guards from inside the strip to the wall surrounding it and then closed the gate and enacted a blockade, for 16 years straight now. About 50% of Gazans are 18 or under, growing up under those conditions, 80% are reliant on humanitarian aid.
You can certainly make arguments that an arms blockade is warranted. But concrete? Starving the city of water? Yeah that’s very much not leaving people alone.
Yeah, it’s pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)
Israel can’t force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can’t force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.
Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn’t do that, there wouldn’t be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn’t limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.
When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they “achieved” Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they’re not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?
Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren’t the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don’t have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don’t know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.
That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.
Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.
Every restriction also breeds resentment and thus increases violence and terrorism.
There’s one question I want to ask here, and it’s not an easy one, and Israel will take a long time to come to a national consensus on it: Was it just money that Israel funnelled to Hamas to weaken the PLO, or also fighters?
Once you understand how you created that monster you’ll also understand how to starve it. Minds can be changed, the mechanics of conflict and conflict resolution can’t.
Yep. It’s a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.
It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone’s efforts towards peace. It’s an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦
Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?
So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn’t. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They’re not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It’s an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.
Don’t give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.
But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants
Israel is militarily, technologically, and economically far superior. That means you have options that Palestinians who want to de-escalate don’t have, thus the ball is in your court. Or, well, practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court. That’s not a special yardstick we carved just for you, it’s not about “who started it” or “who did worst” but “who is in a better position to end this”.
Also y’all speak English and are on the internet. I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.
How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power?
Hamas has more than one wing, all dependent on each other, and one of them you can right-out supplant. Heck it even meshes with security concerns: Instead of saying “Gaza can’t have concrete because Hamas” say “We’re going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we’re going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses”
More generally speaking: You will need to be able to take a punch while showing that you can be an asset to your region of the world meaning internally, you’ll have to make sure that forces who right-out enjoy having an external enemy to fuel their eternal war have absolutely no influence. Doesn’t even need much, all the civil society needs to do is to be receptive enough to understand that Kahanites and Nazis are the same shit with a different coat of paint so that the Israeli Antifa will come back out of exile – Berlin, I know, of all places. It’s an excuse for a city they could’ve at least chosen Hamburg but I digress.
It won’t be easy and it won’t be quick, trust isn’t built in a fortnight. There’s no quick solutions, there’s only approaches which breed resentment and those who don’t, and one kind is perpetuating hatred, the other isn’t. I know this kind of stuff can sound like platitudes but it really isn’t. Being disciplined in that regard is the only way.
More concretely, right now, don’t fucking blow the Saudi Arabia deal. If you need to stop the offensive to do that, do it.
practically all of the balls that can be played towards de-escalation are in your court… “who is in a better position to end this”<
Hamas and all of the other extremist militant groups have the crucial ball though. They’re the ones who are in the only position to end this. No country alone can make peace when their enemy refuses to. That refusal is the ball that Hamas holds, the ball that Palestinian militants held before Israel existed as a modern state, the ball that Arab militants held when the word “Palestinian” most often referred to Jews.
This crap about Israel holding “all the power”, it’s just not true.
I could rant to you about Fatah corruption but what good would that do.<
It’s something we could agree on, you know. Not sure why you wrote this? Do you think I’m unaware of it or how it contributed to the election of Hamas in 2006? I lose count of how many years into his four year term Abbas is, working on 19 years now I think. We could talk about how much current violence in the West Bank is Hamas trying to undermine Fatah there and gain power for themselves.
“We’re going to donate concrete but because of Hamas we’re going to do the pouring, tell us where you want those houses<
If only it were that simple. Hey, let’s present Hamas with official Israeli workers to kidnap and kill. What could possibly go wrong? 🤦
If only it were that simple holds for the rest of your propositions. If only.
If only it were that simple. Hey, let’s present Hamas with official Israeli workers to kidnap and kill.
Who the fuck said anything about neglecting security and being naive?
Hamas and all of the other extremist militant groups have the crucial ball though. They’re the ones who are in the only position to end this.
No. That’s an excuse to avoid being creative and if you’d reflect about it you’d see it. It’s social conditioning saying “we’re the victims, always”.
What’s your plan for the future? Continue the Otzma Yehudit way of “antagonising until they give up”? That’s what got you into this position in the first place. It’s the reason the IDF wasn’t near Gaza and Hamas saw an opening because the IDF was busy in the west bank backing settlers harassing Palestinians. Realise that there’s portions of the Israeli society who want this to continue, whether they admit it or not, because it is convenient for them, because a scared populace can be way more easily convinced to vote for them. Don’t be complicit in that.
Who the fuck said anything about neglecting security and being naive?<
Of course precautions would be taken. Short of going in with significant military protection, it wouldn’t be enough. Hell, going in WITH significant military protection still wouldn’t be enough amongst people who believe in martyrdom and jihad. Israel going in with military protection wouldn’t be seen as a safety measure, it would be seen as provocation. Folks like you would be ranting against Israel for doing so and claiming that the deaths of the construction workers was justified cause, you know, Israel.
You’re the one who’s naive if you hadn’t thought that through.
No. That’s an excuse to avoid being creative and if you’d reflect about it you’d see it. It’s social conditioning saying “we’re the victims, always”.<
I have reflected on this a great deal. My position is considered, informed and grounded in a very unfortunate reality I wish was different. I’ve not said that Israelis are the victims, always. You’ve not understood if you think that. Recognising the agency of Hamas, other militant groups and the infrastructure which supports them in and outside of Gaza is very different.
Don’t be complicit in that.
How little you’ve comprehended if you think that I am.
I don’t have a plan for the future. Hamas and the other militant groups aren’t going to recede any time soon. Quite the opposite now, they will be emboldened by their ‘success’ in brutalising Israelis. Israel can’t attack Gaza hard enough to eliminate the militants. If Israel does less, it will be perceived by militants as a sign of weakness in Israel and continued evidence, not of Israel being strong or any other good quality, but of what the militants forced them to do. If Israel does less, the militants will do more.
It’s an impossible situation. I don’t have an answer. I do know that continuing to blame the entirety of blame and responsibility of Israel doesn’t move us closer to any sort of resolution.
You’re the one who’s naive if you hadn’t thought that through.
What about handing the cement over to Palestinians you can trust (and you know very well they do exist), or international aid organisations, and watching the whole thing with drones?
You seem to be keen on using your creativity and imagination to show how things can’t work. That’s not bad, that’s providing security. Where it becomes a problem is when it replaces thinking of ways how it can work.
Indulge me, suspend your disbelief for a couple of minutes and apply yourself to coming up with something that can be done. Hamas is using pipe sections to build rockets? Fine, tank trucks and canisters exist. Logistically inefficient? Yes. Unviable? Hell no. Then you can say “because of Hamas you now have to carry your water”, not “because Hamas you now have no water”. In one of those two you come across as guarded, but friendly, in the other as heartless.
If Israel does less, it will be perceived by militants
Who the fuck cares about the perception of militants. Worry about the perception of the rest. Worry about Palestinians seeing Israel as the bigger problem than Hamas, worse, as a fucking ally of Hamas.
I do know that continuing to blame the entirety of blame and responsibility of Israel doesn’t move us closer to any sort of resolution.
And blaming everything on Hamas and demanding the impossible – that fascists magically deradicalise – is moving us closer to resolution? That’s the absolutely least likely scenario, yet you declare it to be the only possibility when you say “the ball is in Hamas court”.
Maybe, in this all, we’re looking too far ahead. Would you oppose a Smolanim government that would not giving up on passive security, but stop all the antagonising? The settlements, the turning of PLO territory into Swiss cheese, the “fund Hamas because Fatah is too reasonable” approach? Because if anything should come out of this then it’s wide understanding that the right’s approach to security failed even more than the left’s. Yes maybe Rabin was too naive, people were too hopeful back then (I certainly was), that doesn’t mean that moving to annex the west bank will bring security.
Imagine if they also masked… and kept doing it even after COVID is “gone” (aka: killing fewer people).
Earlier this week, I had to catch a bus and go to a clinic to get my blood work done. Plenty of coughing and sneezing people in both places, and other than the office workers, I was the only one wearing a mask.
While it really does feel like it, as a person working in healthcare, I do see some change after the whole shitstorm from recent years.
There are people who actually wear a mask, few, but they are around.
A lot more people seem to be conscious of spreading their illness to other people be it a cold or COVID.
People definitely wash their hands more often. I know we do.
Some people started getting their annual shots when they didn’t intend to before.
Local businesses open their windows and doors a lot more than they used to.
But also I also see some negative tendencies:
Interest in flu shots has waned. That might have something to do with the govt introducing a free flu shot programme from your GP if you’re above 65 or with specific conditions (which is a great thing) But I definitely see a lot more vaxx-scepticism and fear of combining both shots (infant vaccination plans are a lot more intense and the vast majority are fine).
People politicising a disease.
This is country specific but food supplement companies aggressively promoting “immune system stimulants” to the point where in the beginning of The Plague™ they somehow managed to include them in hospital treatment plans.
This came out longer than intended but there were some things that I needed to get out of my system.
I’m glad there are positive changes, and obviously those are most effective in healthcare situations.
However, from my personal experience as a university student in Canada, everything is the same if not worse than before. Hand sanitizer stations have been removed or simply not refilled, people straight up refuse to wear masks even when they’re sick. A week or two ago in class, I saw many people literally sneeze into their hands and then wipe the snot on their chairs (and these are supposed to be engineering students!). There is still no ventilation or even filtration in any of our classrooms.
Not only is personal protective equipment not used by almost anyone, its use is actively stigmatized by many, including professors at school. To me this is completely ridiculous, but unfortunately reality.
I work at an international business school. I try to stay up to day on world news. There was a paragraph written about “infectious pneumonia” in Time magazine or The Economist the last week of 2019 (so the issue published the first week of 2020, I think).
Returning to work a week later I mentioned it in class, because that year I had about 6 students from different parts of China.
They said, “it’s nothing, just a flu.”
The next week, as numbers started to be published they said, “no, it’s an exaggeration.”
The week after they were the first students to start wearing masks.
Week 4, they told us they hadn’t heard from their families in several days. This would have been February 2020.
I felt so horrible for those students that year. They were only 18 or 19 years old. Sent to France in January 2019 (they are required to come several months before classes start in order to learn French and pass some tests). They were locked down March 16th 2020 and forced to take lessons on Zoom. Unable to return home for the summer. Took another semester on Zoom, etc., etc.…
I think they finally managed to head home in the spring of 2021.
sorry ma’am, your child was one of thirty five killed when we reintroduced wolves to kindercare because they were native here in the 1300s, but their comeback is something to behold, and the survivors have quite a story!
I kid, but also, reintroduce them to areas where they’re least likely to bump up against population, all the areas they natively lived in the past are, unfortunately, overrun by humans. I live in Washington state, where we’re seeing grey wolves slowly come back. I’m all for it. And here in Seattle, we’ve always had Coyotes living around the town, on the large greenways. Keep your cats inside if you love them!
do u really compare the most dense city in the world to… that?
or u try to make a point that so many buildings were destroyed yet so many arabs are alive thus Israel is doing a great job not harming the population?
Gaza is not even remotely the densest city in the world. There are several cities in Israel alone that are denser.
Also, yeah, the death toll among civilians is a tiny fraction of that in these cities during WW2 despite similar levels of destruction, which does support the claim that Israel is actually warning people.
The claim he called propaganda was that every male over 18 +40% of women are seen as, and killed as, terrorists by the Israeli army, not that there wouldn’t be dead civilians. Nobody, literally nobody, claims the latter. Also YOU are funnily the one doing that by being anti-Israel? That, other than Hamas, is an actual country with civilians. Just stop the polarisation and dramatisation. One can be against wannabe autocrat Netanyahu, the war crimes the Israeli army is committing, and yet hope they kill every single Hamas member. Gaza has to be freed, from Hamas and Iran’s snd Quatar’s influence. Unlike those two countries Israel ACTUALLY has a proven track record of working with Palestinians on a civil and economic level and not like your crusader kings jihad DLC fantasy.
do you genuinely think that the actions of Israel are going to actually achieve the goal of killing every single Hamas member? what the Israeli government is doing is actively building support for radical action, because the position Israel is taking, the actions they’re taking, are unreasonable and abhorrent. if your goal is to kill all the insurgents, you lose. because there is no practical way to do that without victimizing the population, killing innocent people, and driving the survivors of that terror campaign into insurgency themselves. we’ve seen this play out before, in so many places. Israel is doing nothing but ensuring the continuation of this conflict.
Unlike those two countries Israel ACTUALLY has a proven track record of working with Palestinians on a civil and economic level and not like your crusader kings jihad DLC fantasy.
maybe there was a track record. there isn’t one any more. the only record the people of Gaza care about is the death toll. how are they expected to trust a country so willing to deliver death, disease, and famine upon them? how are we, as people who care for the lives of our fellow human beings, expected to side with racists and murderers? Hamas is a blight, no doubt, but it is a response to decades of oppression and harm, harm that Israel is gleefully embracing, even as the world turns against them. the kind of dysfunction that makes a state do what Israel is doing is not worth preserving. the kind of ideology that could justify what is happening right now is not worth fighting for.
Hamas is a blight, no doubt, but it is a response to decades of oppression and harm, harm that Israel is gleefully embracing, even as the world turns against them. the kind of dysfunction that makes a state do what Israel is doing is not worth preserving. the kind of ideology that could justify what is happening right now is not worth fighting for.
Very well put. It reminds me of the quote:
If there were an Oscar for best theatrical performance by a country, Israel would win every year. It’s a country based on theater. It’s a lunatic state - completely insane.
Your conclusion is wrong from what they say. Don’t project and polarise. Killing civilians is horrible and must be stopped. But that’s different from targeting them as terrorists. And you know that! How will this mess be ever solved if even on the most basic level are these stupid dramatisation and accusations?
Yes I know, it was a facetious comment because anyone still supporting Israel appears to be in a different reality than I, and I see no point in debating this issue.
Paywalled, but the little bit before that is tiring. Gotta put that bolded ‘Israel has a right to defend itself’ lip-service to genocide before anything else can be said, huh? Tell me again how the perpetrator of apartheid is defending itself against members of the population it’s pushed into an overcrowded open-air prison by bombing them into oblivion.
Your bias is entirely favor of the Palestinian people, as it probably should be but I don't think your analysis is accurate in context of wider history.
Are you saying this is the same level as the holocaust? That was a systemic murdering for the purposes of eliminating jews from the planet. This at its worse, as it currently stands, is an ethnic cleansing. I'm interested in what you would argue makes this genocidal over ethnic cleansing?
I mean it’s not great what they’ve done in Gaza, but just to recalibrate your senses a bit, this is what happens when a nation actually commits genocide against a weaker people inside its borders: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
A significant metric to look at is population growth. Gaza strip is one of the densest population areas in the world, and it has been growing rapidly. This is, incidentally, the reason why most of their population is under-age. In Uyghur areas, in contrast, population has been diminishing in growing rates.
Of course, you shouldn’t also ignore the forced labor, political indoctrination, forced sterilization, forced contraception, forced abortion. I don’t think Israel has done any of these? Israel has destroyed some mosques in their attacks, whereas China has razed or damaged 16 thousand mosques in Uyghur areas. Granted, the area is much larger, so there are probably more mosques in there also. But you should note that China is not at war against Uyghurs, and hasn’t been attacked by them – they’re just destroying them.
Perhaps all the people who would downvote me have already blocked me ;-)
But seriously, this is not whataboutism. It’s an appeal to recalibrate and come to senses, and most importantly, not dilute an important and serious concept like genocide. Even what happened/is happening in Ukraine is probably not a genocide even though I’m happily 100% against Russia.
To summarize it, human rights attorney Rabea Eghbariah makes the case that Israel’s efforts to eliminate the political agency and national identity of Palestinians should be viewed as a novel atrocity which she suggests calling a “Nakba”. She argues that using formal definitions, one can create a compelling case that Israel is guilty of at least attempting genocide in numerous discrete places and points in time, however the contours of their actions are very different structurally from past genocides, and don’t extend well when trying to characterize the broader devastation brought against the Palestinian people even when bombs aren’t falling.
She points out that our concept of apartheid emerged from a system by that name in South Africa, and our concept of genocide emerged after witnessing the industrialization of ethnic murder by the Nazis. In this vein, rather than insisting on trying to examine the Israeli model using the tools and benchmarks of past forms of ethnic suppression, she argues that we may find it more instructive to examine it as a series of innovations in control, particularly focusing on the legal systems used to carefully segment the managed subclass into a complex hierarchy selective in its conferral of rights to movement, occupancy, and legal protection.
I think this is a good framework. I’m very comfortable calling the campaign against Gaza in the last few weeks genocide, but many people call what has happened since 1948, or 1968 or since 2006 a genocide, and it’s understandably harder to pin down. But it starts to become easier to think about and talk about if we tie the intermittent bombing campaigns into a larger picture with the systems of work permits and building permits and water rights and so on that are used to dispossess Palestinians and render them powerless.
This seemed like a high quality analysis by a respectable academic, then the veryfirstsource I checked out turned out to be an amazing exaggeration. The article states
Tens of thousands are injured, and over 45% of homes in Gaza have been destroyed.
So I check the source, which is a paywalled WSJ article. Already the title of the article is
At Least 45% of Housing Units Destroyed or Damaged in Gaza
Destroyed ordamaged. Should I check the other sources for similar “mistakes”? Perhaps I just got lucky and found the only bullshit reference from this article written by a Harvard Law School PhD graduate?
Or perhaps Harvard Law Review was onto something when they didn’t publish it and I would be wasting my time looking through all of them instead of just trusting them on this.
I’m very comfortable calling the campaign against Gaza in the last few weeks genocide
Because it fits nearly every single clause in the UN convention on genocide? Because Israeli officials have admitted on national tv they intend to create “a second nakba”? Because they’re using dehumanizing language to describe Palestinians? Because they’ve admitted their goal is to take over Gaza? Because they’re violently attacking hundreds of people in the West Bank, where Hamas has no presence? Because it is by definition a genocide, and apologia like yours does nothing but try to push people into genocide denial.
Why is it almost always the people who call themselves communists?
Because you’re ignoring genocides committed by others?
What about:
native Americans
Irish
Bangladesh
Holocaust
Armenia
Just to name a few famous examples.
Besides, Pol Pot wasn’t much of a communist, as soon as he started the genocide, he lost support from other communist nations, he became a staunch anti-communist and got the support of the USA even more than a decade after the communists deposed him.
I’m not going to argue the holodomor with you, but even there, the case is not as simple as you think.
On top of that, the existence of bigger genocides doesn’t stop making this less of a genocide.
Sure, many of these happened in a time where communism was still more like a theory (or not even that yet) than anything tried in practice. People who called themselves communist did a lot of these in a single century, most of them after WW2.
Besides, Pol Pot wasn’t much of a communist
To be fair, I said people “who call themselves communist”.
What’s your point? Are you saying that there are always people who commit genocides and these people become communist after they read Das Kapital?
Communism’s main rival is capitalism. If you want to make a fair comparison, you need to include genocides committed by capitalist countries too. And capitalism has been around for a fair bit longer. Not making excuses for communist countries, just putting things a little more in context.
To be fair, I said people “who call themselves communist”.
Communism and socialism is popular, if you are a populist, an often used strategy is pretending to be the popular thing. Hitler pretended to be a socialist, until he purged all socialists. Pol Pot pretended to be a communist, until it no longer suited him and he had them killed.
Pol Pot pretended to be a communist, until it no longer suited him and he had them killed.
He was the leader of the Communist Party of Kampuchea from 1963-1981, at which point it was rebranded as the Party of Democratic Kampuchea, which he lead until 1985. Also that new party was communist. The Cambodian genocide was roughly 1975-1979.
Are you just defining people who are absolutely horrible not communists even though they call themselves communist, are allied with other governments who call themselves communist, and execute similar policies as them? I mean I get the impulse, I also get plenty of negative feelings when I think about pro-free market, pro-freedom politicians who commit atrocities or say stupid shit and would rather that those people don’t exist. Sadly, real world doesn’t always like us.
The article opens with “what about America’s response to 9/11?”. JFC, what a shitty justification. America was clearly wrong to war crime all over Iraq just as Israel is in the wrong for warcriming all over Palestine. I refuse to “both sides” imperialists and their victims. Frankly, “both sides” is the trap one should avoid.
Arguable, Iraq was Bush Jr. finishing what his father started in the late 80s. It may well have happened even without 9/11. Afghanistan however was a direct consequence of 9/11, and is a more apt metaphor for what Israel is doing now.
There's no point raising a metaphor in the first place. A metaphor doesn't justify anything. It's just a rhetorical tool that is supposed to help deliver a point. However, all it does in this instance is mess and draw confusion.
“Now I realize, well, that was stupid,” she said. “But I bought them because I believed President Trump, because he knows all about finance, and he was going to help the real Trump Patriots get rich.”
Admits to being stupid and then exercises more of it.
Not approving of Israel’s completely disproportionate response, in particular the mass killing of palestinian civilians – bordering on genocide – is not the same as supporting Hamas.
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