I am no programmer either, mainly a technical-oriented user, and I made the switch to a linux-only desktop almost 20 years ago. I tried several distros but I keep coming back to ubuntu (in vanilla gnome mode), with it’s closeness to debian and huge library of apps, with it’s massive userbase you get a lot of online community support, and it’s really polished these days. For the last 5-6 years or so I’ve been using “LTS” releases, doing major updates every two years, I found that to be a very reasonable cadence and it gives you great environment stability. The only significant downside I found these days is ubuntu’s insistence in using their (proprietary?) snap desktop container app ecosystem, I personally much prefer flatpaks, and actually I use flatpaks extensively on my ubuntu desktop for SW that needs frequent updating (darktable, logseq, etc)
I don’t use gnome; can someone who does plz tell me what style that is? The color scheme is Everforest, but what’s the rest of the style called? It’d look good on rofi & polybar.
Edit: I guess the theme is also Everforest Dark? I think it’s this one.
Edit 2: Someone has already done most of the work for polybar, rofi, and some other tiling WM tools; dotfiles here. I haven’t tested it myself yet, but it looks pretty good.
X (not formerly twitter) is decades old and is built around deprecated ways of doing things as well as a lot of legacy functions.
Wayland is a relatively new project with the aim of replacing X as a more “modern” display server.
Wayland had some stability issues, but they’ve since improved.
I’m sure Wayland is good and all, but I can’t be arsed replacing X yet. I don’t really have any skin in the game, I just don’t replace functioning components just because they’re old (FYI, bash turns 35 this year). While X does what I need it to do, I’ll keep using it. I’ll probably move over when my distro does.
I’ll leave the technical explanation to someone else.
Yeah. Wayland works great on my laptop. I can’t even log in on my desktop because it’s Nvidia. As a light Linux user the difference doesn’t really mean much to me aside from the fact it doesn’t work on my desktop.
That’s right. To add a few things: X11 isn’t bad. It’s just a big and complex piece of software that has grown for multiple decades. And nobody wants to do big changes or add new things anymore.
Wayland is the modern and “fresh” new approach. I’ve had some issues with my NVidia graphics card. But that wasn’t Waylands fault, but the NVidia drivers. I have a laptop with just Intel graphics and both X11 and Wayland run excellently on that machine.
With Linux we often get many choices, and have several alternatives available to do the same / a similar job. That is a bit complicated for someone new. But we should embrace it, be glad that we can pick whatever suits our individual needs. Wayland still has some issues on a few specific setups, but eventually it will replace X11 as the default.
The X font server has been deprecated like 10 years ago. I doubt you’ll find it as an option in a modern distribution. Nowadays fonts are rendered by the client (application) with something like the Cairo library (if I’m not mistaken).
I would advise you get Debian + GNOME and install all software via flatpack/flathub. This way you’ll have a very solid and stable system and all the latest software that can be installed, updated and removed without polluting your base system. The other option obviously is to with those hipster of a systems like pop, mint and x-ubuntu.
Now I’m gonna tell you what nobody talks about when moving to Linux:
The “what you go for it’s entirely your choice” mantra when it comes to DE is total BS. What happens is that you’ll find out while you can use any DE in fact GNOME will provide a better experience because most applications on Linux are design / depend on its components. Using KDE/XFCE is fun until you run into some GTK/libadwaita application and small issues start to pop here and there, windows that don’t pick on your theme or you just created a frankenstein of a system composed by KDE + a bunch of GTK components;
I hope you don’t require “professional” software such as MS Office, Adobe Apps, Autodesk, NI Circuit Design and whatnot. The alternatives wont cut it if you require serious collaboration and virtualization, emulation (wine) may work but won’t be nice. Going for Linux kinda adds the same pains of going macOS but 10x. Once you open the virtualization door your productivity suffers greatly, your CPU/RAM requirements are higher and suddenly you’ve to deal with issues in two operating systems instead of just one. And… let’s face it, nothing with GPU acceleration will ever run decently unless big companies start fixing things - GPU passthroughs and getting video back into the main system are a pain and add delays;
Proprietary/non-Linux apps provide good features, support and have tons of hours of dev time and continuous updates that the FOSS alternatives can’t just match.
Linux was the worst track ever of supporting old software, even worse than Apple;
Half of the success of Windows and macOS is the fact that they provide solid and stable APIs and development tools that “make it easy” to develop for those platforms and Linux is very bad at that. The major pieces of Linux are constantly and ever changing requiring large and frequent re-works of apps. There aren’t distribution “sponsored” IDEs (like Visual Studio or Xcode), userland API documentation, frameworks etc.;
The beautiful desktop you see online are bullshit with a very few exceptions. Most are just carefully designed screenshots but once you install the theme you’ll find out visual inconsistencies all over the place, missing icons and all kinds of crap that makes Microsoft look good;
Be ready to spend A LOT of time to make basic things work. Have coffee and alcohol (preferably strong) at your disposal all the time.
(Wine for all the greatness it delivers still sucks and it hurts because it’s true).
With regards to 6. I tried Xerolinux with a rice on it and yes it looked pretty but after a couple hours of real world use it was more annoying than anything else.
Yeah, it used to be just web servers in a data center. Bigger systems used mainframes. Consumer electronics used custom RTOSes or other custom boards. Now it’s everywhere. It’s used in the biggest systems, like the computers that power virtually every Google product, and the smallest systems. It’s almost not worth it not to use Linux when building a tiny device because it makes the dev cycle so much shorter.
Jesus I’ve been using Linux for years and your comment just made this really click for me. Do you think Linus is protected by governments and stuff? Like I know he didn’t make all of it, and there’s lots of forks, but he’s defacto in charge… That’s gotta be a lot of soft power
Dude come on. Make an effort. If you really haven’t a clue then start by reading the KDE developer’s blog “Pointiest Stick” and github user Probonopd and his article + links gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…
Not only is @jacksilver right, but additionally, this article is extremely biased in favor of Xorg and is much more of a (completely unfair and one-sided) take-down of Wayland oriented at technical folks and not at all an explainer for laypeople
Not OP, but the point of asking for an ELI5 is that sometimes you don’t even know where to start. For example I clicked the link you provided and only have more questions as I don’t really know what people mean by display servers, etc.
Sure I could look everything up and try to understand, but the hope is someone in the community might provide a better or faster summary than what can currently be found online.
Something similar has been asked loads and loads of times. It’s not needed to investigate, just searching for previous discussions is enough. It sometimes surprises me that people don’t read one of the many times the same was asked before. That said, despite the same questions coming up many times there’s often multiple people who will gladly explain things. So I agree that it doesn’t make sense to complain about it. I’m a bit surprised that nothing would come up though. It really gets asked regularly.
I get your point. I don’t know about OP, but I hadn’t seen a similar thread, but I usually browse all so easily miss posts for specific communities.
Also, I’ve found search on Lemmy hit or miss. The federation aspect of everything makes search sometimes difficult or confusing. For example, what community would most likely have already provided an ELI5 post and how would it have been phrased?
I would say that is a false dichotomy. Almost everyone agrees that X11 isn’t the future but the support for Wayland and the specific ways it does things, is not nearly as universal as that. It is just that the problem is huge and has already taken 15 years or so and so it looks like if we want some alternative to X11 that will be done any time soon Wayland is unfortunately the only game in town, no matter how flawed it is.
I’m not a Wayland fan by any stretch, but I’ve come to the same confusion you did. And so has almost everyone else. Which is the real point of my comment I guess.
I think the main problem is that Wayland is not a drop in replacement.
Every software needs to support Wayland, new environment flags need to be created, flags must be used with electron apps…
Nvidia support has been spotty and some functionality has not yet been implemented. I use a custom .xcompose file, which doesn’t work on electron apps. Let me know if there’s a better way to mimic window’s dead keys.
Overall, it’s hard for an end user to change from a solution that is working perfectly to a solution that requires a ton of work and doesn’t yet have the same functionality.
Everyone can understand that Wayland is the future but depending on your needs and hardware the current experience can be great or terrible.
Sure but as someone starting with a new system Wayland just works. Example multitouch works right away on Wayland and if I remember correctly needs configuration on x11.
I had to set a ton more. Without the ozone flags my electron apps flicker and have this sync problem that appears to eat letters while I type them. Different electron apps use different configuration files, it’s a mess.
I wouldn’t consider my setup to be complex enough for the amount of trouble I had to make the system work under Wayland.
I’m using an Nvidia GPU, I’m sure things would be more streamlined if I had something else.
A switch from X11 to Wayland is not just a minor change to your workflow though unless you used all defaults before.
It requires you to replace your window manager, all the little tools related to things like clipboard, automation, screen locking,…
And you would have to do pretty much all of that up front to be able to use Wayland long enough to know if it even works on a permanent basis for you. That is a lot of work to put into a project that has a sketchy history of people claiming for nearly a decade now that it works just fine for everything while clearly not working fine for all use cases.
The point wasn’t so much that there are no replacements, more that every script and every shortcut and everything else using them will have to be changed to work with the Wayland alternative.
I was product manager at a company that made PTZ cameras based on Linux. The company was acquired a few times but still actually manufactures them in Minnetonka MN. Kind of fun working at a place the had development, manufacturing, support and engineering in one building.
Well, it turns out only a handful of companies actually make image modules. I would say it is better in terms of US based support, firmware, hardware design, and the fact it meets TAA and buy America compliance. I’ve seen these cameras in the DoD and even in the oval office. If you want a camera that is absolutely not spying on you I can vouch for these because I have watched the firmware get built on these.
Applications needs some coordination between each other in order to act like you would expect - things like one window at a time having focus and thus getting all keyboard and mouse inputs. As well as things like positioning on the screen and which screen to render to, the clipboard, and various others things.
X is a server and set of protocols that applications can implement to allow all this behaviour. X11 is the 11th version of the server and protocols. But X was also first created in 1984, and X11 since around 1987. Small changes have been made to X11 over the years but the last was in 2012.
Which makes it a very old protocol - and one which is showing its age. Advances in hardware since then and the way we use devices have left a lot to be desired in the protocol and while it has adapted a bit to keep up with modern tech it has not done so in the best of ways. I also believe its codebase is quite complex and hard to work with so changes are hard to do.
Thus is has quite a lot of limitations that modern systems are rubbing up against - for instance it does not really support multi cursors or input that is not a mouse and keyboard. So things like touch screens or pen/tablets tend to emulate a mouse and thus affect the only pointer X has. It is also not great at touchpads and things like touch pad gestures - while they do work, they are often clunky or not as flexible as some applications need.
It is also very insecure and has no real security measures in place - any GUI application has far more access to the system and input then it really requires. For instance; any application can screen grab the screen at any point in time - not something you really want when you have a banking web page open.
Wayland is basically a new set of protocols that takes more modern hardware and security practices in mind. It does the same fundamental job as X11, but without the same limitations X11 has and to fix a lot of the security issues with X.
One big difference with X though is that Wayland is just a protocol, and not a protocol and server like X. Instead it shifts the responsibilities of the X server into the window manager/compositor (which used to manage window placement and window borders as well as global effects such as any animations or transparency). It also has better controls over things like screen grabs so not every application can just grab a screen shot at once or register global shortcut keys or various things like that. Which for a while was a problem as screen sharing applications or even screenshot tools did not work - but over time these limitations have been added back in more secure ways than how X11 did them.
Additionally any application using a GUI toolkit (like kde, qt or gtk etc) only needs to to update to a version that has native Wayland support. Which means most applications already support it. At least if they don’t use any X11 APIs directly (which is not that common).
X is old and very hard to maintain. A lot of rules about how displays work have changed drastically since X became a thing. X went along with most of those changes, which meant the introduction of more and more hacks to keep it running.
Over time X became worse and worse to work on and people realized that it’s easier to write something new from scratch instead of trying to fix the decade-old technical debt in X.
That new thing was Wayland and over time most if not all people that where interested in working on desktop compositing pivoted away from X.
Wayland (as it is always the case with new software of that size) didn’t hit the ground running. It had various issues at the beginning and also follows a different desig philosophy than X.
Despite a lot of issues being fixed some people are still very vocal about not wanting to use wayland for one reason or another. While some of those reasons are valid, most come from ignorance or laziness to adapt.
There are distros that make it easy for non-techies to install and manage Linux, and if you have any computer aptitude at all, it should be pretty easy. The devil is in the details; if all your hardware is well supported, there’s no reason why you should ever have to open a shell. Trouble usually happens with peripherals like printers and some extremely protective vendor chips like Broadcom. In those cases, it’s usually still possible to make things work, but it can require researching, finding, reading how-tos, downloading, compiling and installing software.
I think 99% of trouble I’ve ever had in the past 20 years has been with printers+scanners or Broadcom chips - they’re very common. I read about people having issues with graphics cards, but that seems to be mainly Nvidia; I’ve only ever had Intel or Radeon, and haven’t had trouble with graphics cards in the past decade or so, myself.
Anyway, my advice is to do some distro hopping before you settle on one. Boot from a USB stick for a while; it’ll be a bit slower, but it’ll make playing with different desktop environments and distributions easier, before you commit.
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