I feel incredibly blessed to have a job that allows me to do my work on my own time, and to utilize company resources to educate myself while on the clock. I honestly get excited to go to work nowadays, and itās great. :)
You have drawn a good lot it seems. Tho no matter how pleasant the job, you still create more value for your boss than you get paid back by themā¦ (value extraction for profit lessss goooo)
not rly, market machinations force co-ops to behave like for-profit capitalist companies regardless. The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that it has a boss. Even if you have great conditions as a worker-owner, your privilege is just built on the backs of non-owner (aka. 2nd class) workers and outsourcing (see Mondragon in Spain for example)
Donāt get me wrong though: co-ops are still virtually always better than āstandardā corporations imo. What I mean to say is that the systemic problem of capitalism is not solvable by just creating companies āof a new typeā
Youāre forgetting the fact that your work has zero value in a vacuum though. If you enjoy your employment and are well remunerated for it, then a cut for the enabler isnāt actually unreasonable. Having said that, the cut taken is usually way too high, but thatās another discussionā¦
The thing is: just owning the means for someone elses work is not a service you provide to others (ie. employment). That whole position (the private ownership of the means of others work) is redundant and leeches off of society
The employers' claim extend beyond a cut. They solely appropriate 100% of the whole positive and negative product of the firm while employees as employees have 0% claim on the whole product
Well thatās not really trueā¦ Itās very common for employees to be granted shares in some form or another, and of course your salary comes from some proportion of the firmās profits. Donāt get me wrong, if I could just work on open source stuff all the time and have money magically appear in my account Iād be chuffed, but in the absence of a market, one arises - some people donāt want the hassle of figuring out what people actually want and are happy to lend their arms to the oars in exchange for someone else to figure out where to go, and of course some people feel like they have a good vision as to what will be productive but donāt have the ability to create the whole edifice themselves.
Regulation is, of course, important - in a democracy, the theory is that everyone has a right to vote for a government who will in turn protect their interests in what can otherwise become a very leveraged position for the employer - but the notion that every CEO is inherently a leech on society simply by virtue of being an employer seems a little too lacking in nuance for me to get onboard here.
In the context of the real world, I think itās unquestionably the case that director-level positions are over-rewarded and insufficiently taxed and regulated, but I see that more as a failure of implementation; Iām not sure how people could ever cooperate on the diversity of projects that currently exist if the employer/employee relationship weāre forbidden. A lot of people are simply unable or unwilling to play the role of general; not everyone falls into that category of course, and it would be an interesting world if one could just join a collective effort and from the get-go be as highly rewarded and as listened to as the projectās progenitors, but it can often take a long time to build up contextā¦
Anyway what Iām saying here is that dictating a global framework for the structure of collective effort is genuinely really hard, and thatās before you even get into the issues of what mandate is required for a body to be able to stipulate such a framework to begin with
The latter problem could be solved by banning having non-member workers at the legal level and requiring giving workers voting rights in the firm they work in.
Worker coops don't behave exactly like for-profit companies. Anti-capitalism is more than just worker democracy. For example, another aspect is common ownership of land and natural resources with fees for use. This would ensure that worker coops factor in environmental costs
Thatās why it makes me livid when landbastards talk about āpassive incomeāā¦ itās just extorting money from working ppl (who actually create value) for the āprivilegeā of having oneās basic needs met
Workers cooperatives typically focus on more than pure profit since the values of the workers and owner are aligned.
These can be broad and intangible goals compared to seeing the money numbers go up and down, like instead of getting laid off in economic hardship, the worker/owners receive a pay cut. Or you might hire more people than thereās work so that everyone can leave a bit earlier.
Sorry to hear thatā¦ Maybe join a union and/or socialist party/org in your area to bring about change?
Itās ok if you donāt have the energy/motivation for that thoughā¦ maybe just spread the word that a better world, where the economy is democratically controlled and owned by the public, is possible?
I once had a user whose PC would freeze every time they tried to see their desktop. Like, you minimise something full screen and the PC would freeze for a few minutes and crawl while the desktop was in view.
Turns out they had more than 4,000 items on their desktop.
That day I learned where Windows puts icons that donāt fit on the desktop (it stacks them all on the first iconās place, lol). And this wasnāt even the problem they called about! They were just grumpily blaming Microsoft and working around it for years.
I guess my point is computer illiterate/belligerent people will find a way around the problems they cause and just blame something/someone else.
Man I was fairly anti-Israel just on the grounds of āyou stole a bunch of land, kicked everyone out, and theyāre pissed no shitā
Then I listened to a podcast with an expert on the area/history who lives there as well, just a basic rundown of how society works there was all I needed. Jews are fine, but the ānationā of Israel needs to be dismantled.
This whole thing isnāt about religion. Itās about human rights and nothing else. I am so disgusted by all the blames of anti semitism thrown around currently. And at the same time there are legit anti semites running around, that are more often than not siding with Israel, but everyone seems to focus on the āpro Hamas radical anti semitesā that are somehow emerging right now. No. Itās not about religion, ethnicity or whatever. Itās about basic human rights for everyone!
Sure but most Americans treat calling the actions of Israel bad as basically Hitler.
The anti semites are out in force on the side of Israel because itās precisely the form of society they want here. Tiers of rights with the highest only going to one particular group.
What I mean is that work conditions have vastly improved compared to the last century (thanks to unions). It may be miserable yes but itās a far cry from the horrible work that our ancestors were forced to endure starting from a young age.
I get what you mean. Ofc class struggle has brought us many concessions, technology progresses over time and the industrialized countries add more and more abstraction layers to manual work.
My point would be that we do have to view the working conditions relative to whatās possible at the given time. Given the resources humanity has today, fully automated luxury (queer) space communism is within realistic reach!
Itās a similar answer as to world hunger: itās a systematic distribution - not resource - problem. That being artificially created scarcity thanks to a profit and greed driven economic base (capitalism) and inequitable/inefficient allocation of resources (markets)
I canāt even find the words for how incredibly supercalifragilisticexpialidociously stupid that sounds when I take your lack of argument into consideration
Try to leave your childhood trauma out of this, and we might be able to turn this trainwreck of a discussion into something productive.
[ā¦] your lack of argument [ā¦]
Right. It is so obvious from the context that you havenāt even considered the effects that stabilizing the eel population in the Caucasus could have on achieving world peace.
Scientists saying empty space not really being empty doesnāt lend your argumentative vacuum any substance.
So often do I see people starting their comment with some variation of that or āyouāre wrong!ā But then they basically agree with that the other was saying. People just want to shout and be angry and dominant and not even really reading what the other one is saying.
Is it really that bad? Like Iāve had bad slaw before but the good stuff with fennel and celery seed is tasty. Nice little appetizer to your fish and chippo.
I feel like on Lemmy I get in more substantive arguments about the subject, and less of the other person playing armchair psychologist when I donāt see it their way.
Yeah but we also have some of the most pedantic people Iāve ever dealt with, who will completely ignore your entire argument because they found a tiny bit of nuance in your word choice that they then cling to like it makes any fuckin sense
I used this scene in a cybersecurity training session. I knew it got the point across, when our resident ad-clicker asked me for advice to avoid that situation.
E: she asked for advice for her home computer, as she didnāt understand that āat home and at workā meant āat home and at work with any device, not just workāsā
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