How prevalent is veganism in India? Whenever I look at Indian food, it’s butter this and milk that. Sure, there are some very good vegan choices, but it seems to me that Indians love their dairy.
Veganism is actually a fairly new phenomenon in general, a lot of Jains in particular have adopted it. But vegetarianism in India dates back over a thousand years BCE , so yeah, they’ve got a bit of a head start.
Except for the part where they’re kept in small cages or “free range” in dirty cramped pens. Luckily it’s easier to get eggs from chickens raised ethically than meats. You just gotta fork over a few extra bucks or get the hookup at a farmer’s market
I never said they were? I’m not even a vegetarian stop being so sensitive. I don’t care for making anything suffer when I can still have eggs without the suffering. It’s that simple. If you’ve based too much of your personality on macho meathead bullshit then do you boo. I’m sure that’s a great replacement for an actual personality.
We drive 10mph around here because the damn chickens like to “free range” in the road. Those are pretty large pens, the size of a damn town.
The USDA needs to get their pockets out of big ag’s hands. Free Range should be Free-Fucking-Range. I get to know the chicken I eat got to run wild 16 hours every day, but many people do not.
Yeah the fuckery that they pull when they list things as grass fed and free range is vile. Then they make a profit on top of it because they barely change anything but charge premium prices for the fancy label.
I’m lucky to have a beef farm in my state that ships locally and actually follows the spirit of grass fed up to grass finished in sprawling pastures. They also do individual slaughter. For eggs we’ve got a few locals that bring them to the farmers markets on Sundays. Beef is like a once a week thing for us these days and it’s usually just ground beef. Chicken and fish are our biggest sources of protein now. I don’t really do pork anymore. Can’t find any that’s remotely close to ethically sourced which is abysmal considering how intelligent pigs are. So I just stopped buying it.
Also, and I’m fully aware this could just be some kinda subconscious bias, but I swear the meat and eggs taste SO much better than the stuff from the grocery. Eggs especially. The yolks are so vibrant and hardly break when being fried. Even the shells seem stronger and less likely to shatter into tiny annoying bits.
Here’s my reason for trying to eat a little more beef than that. If I’m giving “lives lost” any value, you can’t beat cows for calories per animal death. It beats a lot of plant-based foods. And I do have local beef, though it is not fully sustained like local chicken is… which is why I eat more chicken and seafood as well. Not to mention, even though beef around me can be ecologically sustainable, it will not remain that way if too many people eat it because it needs to be supplemented by import. So some beef = good. More beef = less good.
We actually have some ethically sourced local pork, too. I guess it’s nice living in a farming area of my state, despite not living in a farming-state. The butcher’s pork section is always small, but he’s got some.
Also, and I’m fully aware this could just be some kinda subconscious bias, but I swear the meat and eggs taste SO much better than the stuff from the grocery
Not really a subconscious bias. They are fresher, and preservation techniques often have not been started on them. If you eat an egg that has never been refrigerated, of course it’s fresher. (or the opposite, lol)
The seafood my family fishes is right off a boat, generally only a couple hours harvested. After the fishermens’ cut, the best stuff goes to a couple local restaurants and seafood markets, and the rest are frozen and shipped. Yes, you can taste the difference. I never liked scallops until I tasted “the real thing” off a boat.
I would say about 30% of my Indian coworkers over the years have been vegan.
I think the challenge is that, unlike a lot of Western vegans, they don’t go out of their way to talk about it. My second job, I knew day 1 about the white girl who was vegan. It took me 2 years to learn that 4 of my Indian coworkers were vegan since birth. And I only learned it because they learned I was getting into Indian food so they all started bringing stuff in for me to try. Entire meals. Incredible meals. I miss that job, lol.
My family loves to announce to the world that I don’t drink milk. It’s annoying. Idk they’re probably in shock or something that someone would choose not to abuse cows. (They’re vegetarians, I’m vegan)
which would be fine if it were just a straight comparison but it starts bleating about chemicals and preservatives and it’s a bit too purity politicking for my tastes.
This is what people don’t get, if you’ve been veggie for years then you don’t need meat substitutes, these products are for normies trying to cut back or give up while they break the cultural training.
I’ve been vegetarian for… more than a decade? I love meat substitutes and generally prefer having the substitute present in meals (either as the main thing, like a burger, or as an inclusion). I do agree that meat substitutes are a fantastic way of reducing meat consumption for meat-eaters, but that doesn’t mean you need to do away with it completely once you’re in ‘full veg’ mode
Maybe. While I do sometime choose the plant-based meat, thinking of it as a substitute was my initial reluctance to try vegetarian food. Back then, I ridiculed the idea of a “veggie burger”, but really liked grilling a “black bean patty”. Did you realize Mac and Cheese can be vegetarian? “Greek veggie dip” is horrible, but I love hummus. I always loved various potatoes, but it was quite a revelation that you could spice them up and use them as a meal. My latest infatuation is Halloumi or Paneer - don’t ever call a nice grilling cheese a substitute for anything.
At least for me, it is easier to choose foods for their own value, rather than suffer with a substitute, r a variation “without”. I’m not a vegetarian and have no interest in it, but I will choose what looks good to me at any given time, on its own merits
One of these cultures has normalised vegan and vegetarianism for centuries, the other is trying to wean a meat-obsessed population
As someone who works in a grocery store, the worst fucking people are the ones who go up to the deli counter and yell at the clerks, demanding the "bloodiest* roast beef they’ve got. That or the spiciest turkey, or whatever.
Dudes who’s entire sense of self is invested in eating meat. Easily the most annoying kind of guy I encounter in my daily life.
That and the ‘for every animal you don’t eat i’m gonna eat THREE!’ Yay well done so macho you get threatened by what another person eats fucking yay for you sir gold star.
Dudes who’s entire sense of self is invested in eating meat
This might sound silly. But maybe they enjoy the taste of rare roast beef? Before this “make meat seem like it’s not dead animal” trend, the rule used to be anything over medium was overcooked for most meats. For some odd reason (actually, not odd. freaking additives) a lot of roast beef is sold medium-well. Which is tasteless enough to make someone go vegan!
I don’t understand “yell at the clerks”. I’ve never seen that. But I agree it’s rude. Just **not **because they are buying meat.
Yeah I don’t get the whole “replace meat with a vegan steak” idea. Just prepare a delicious Dahl, the recipe of which has been around for hundreds of years!
They’re not made for people like us who have been veggie or vegan for years and have learned to cook with pulses, legumes, etc. They’re designed for people who want to cut back or give up meat but have to break the cultural training that every meal needs meat. Also they allow casual food places that don’t have professional chefs like pubs, cafes, etc to have quick and easy veggie options on the menu.
I think there’s a more commercial aspect to it. It’s cheap processed food, and in fact it’s often cheaper than meat-based processed foods. The real offense is that they charge more for it.
As someone who has seen both made, I think the prices are what you’d expect against materials and work involed. Plant-based meats require more ingredients, with more sourcing, and more processing. And then fewer are made and sold overall (economics of scale).
And people don’t realize, the subsidies hurt a lot of the manufacturing chains that are pricemakers for the meat. Ranchers have to pay the infamous feed tax when they sell their meat, which funds one of the biggest subsidies in the farming world, only paid out to the largest factory farms. Because mega-factory-farms can’t actually afford to charge the prices that ranchers charge, what after all those massive bonuses the top couple people make.
Plant-based meats require more ingredients, with more sourcing, and more processing.
You’re just using an animal to perform the processing instead. I wonder why poultry or beef isn’t required to list all of the antibiotics or growth horomones that those animals were fed as included ingredients.
You’re just using an animal to perform the processing instead
Which they do efficiently. There’s no grass in the resulting meat, or feed, or sunlight. That’s why they’re not on the ingredient list. And water is in everything.
I wonder why poultry or beef isn’t required to list all of the antibiotics or growth horomones that those animals were fed as included ingredients.
Per the Iowa Farm Bureau, because there ARE NO antibiotics or residue in the resultant meat. An ingredient is something actually in the product. Nobody says there’s gasoline in your food vegetables because of the harvester, or insects in your vegetables because… well there actually are!
As for growth hormones… nobody has to say there’s growth hormones in it because they’re everywhere. Beef from a hormone-treated cow has thousands (to millions) of times less growth hormonesthan many plant-based products like peanuts or soy flour. Nobody has to list Estrogen on soy milk.
They produce meat more efficiently than any artifical process, especially any process line using nuclear medicine (what businesses are trying now).
And for what it’s worth, there is no other mechanism that converts indigestible starches into highly digestible proteins efficiently.
It’s not like everything put into an animal is converted into edible flesh, not even a tenth of it is.
The typical chicken caloric conversion rate is 2-5x. That means 10000 calories of feed produces 5000 total calories that are higher quality than the feed was, about 2000 of those calories is meat, where the remaining 3000 is used for other purposes, like creating broths. This is incredibly, miraculously efficient.
Real-world numbers seem a bit better. 100-320kcal/day (more in winter and as they grow) per day in feed, and produce 2500 of straight meat after 40 days. That looks like more like 4x conversion than 5x.
Egg-laying chickens have a ramp up (where you feed them but they don’t produce eggs), but then produce an egg almost daily. That’s 80 calories in eggs for 260-340 calories in feed. (so almost 100% return on the extra cals). And yes, you can still eat the chicken when she’s too old to lay eggs. She’ll just be a bit more tough.
So if you’re comparing the production of meat to burning gasoline, then no chicken is not as efficient. If you’re comparing it to any food-related process (or hell, many mechanical processes), it’s downright jawdroppingly good.
Compare to corn. Only 10% of the calories in a typical grain crop are edible by humans. You’ll never guess what we use most of the other 90% for.
Nuclear medicine? Are you talking about meat grown in fermentation chambers? Do you think that’s the only alternative to animal flesh? Those things don’t even exist on a mass production scale yet and plenty of people avoid animal products somehow. I don’t know why you think I’m advocating for such a process.
It’s also a myth that we feed animals only things that are inedible to us, edible soy and grain is very pervasive in animal agriculture. You’re also conveniently leaving out additional land, water, and energy use as inputs, as well as negative outputs (though tbf I only mentioned inputs). I’m also curious about your 90-10 ratio, I’d be incredibly surprised if in reality 90% of net energy in animal feed came from inedible crop, especially when you include pasture feeding and silage in the mix. I thought experts agreed that we could free up a significant amount of land by removing animals from our food system while still feeding the same amount of people, this wouldn’t be true if animals made our existing croplands more efficient or were at the very least neutral.
Nuclear medicine? Are you talking about meat grown in fermentation chambers?
Yeah. The topic is efficiency. I was covering all the bases.
Do you think that’s the only alternative to animal flesh?
No. There are no alternatives to animal flesh.
Those things don’t even exist on a mass production scale yet and plenty of people avoid animal products somehow
And I know people who commute grandfathered trucks that get single-digit miles per gallon. I didn’t say it was strictly impossible, just inefficient.
You’re also conveniently leaving out additional land, water, and energy use as inputs, as well as negative outputs (though tbf I only mentioned inputs).
No I’m not. Go check out all my past debates or cited references on this topic because I’m not rehashing that shit again on a work day.
It’s also a myth that we feed animals only things that are inedible to us, edible soy and grain is very pervasive in animal agriculture
I didn’t actually argue that here. The strict statistic is 86% of cattle feed is human inedible (and much of what’s human edible is provided at the end to “fatten the cow up” so we get the maximum number of people fed by that one cow having to die). A large percent of chicken and turkey feed is technically human edible (it’s low-grade millet) but not particularly nutritious.
I’m also curious about your 90-10 ratio, I’d be incredibly surprised if in reality 90% of net energy in animal feed came from inedible crop, especially when you include pasture feeding and silage in the mix
Do me a favor and reread my comment when you calm down. That’s not what I said. I said that 90% of crops like corn are human inedible. And that they go to feed. Not that 90% of what animals eat is crops like corn. You’re absolutely right that much of it absolutely comes from cover crops in pasture and silage. Thanks for defending my side.
I thought experts agreed that we could free up a significant amount of land by removing animals from our food system while still feeding the same amount of people
No. Some experts say that. Experts agree that we could free up significant amounts of land by reducing meat intake, but every expert I’ve read does not think it’s some linear thing where zero meat is the ideal. The largest part and problem is the symbiotic relationship between agriculture and horticulture. 67% of TOTAL agricultural land use is in what’s called “marginal land”, land that cannot be used to grow crops or forested. It can ONLY be used for livestock or nothing.
The problem only starts when livestock need more land than the marginal land that’s being used. Until that point, from a land point of view, livestock like cattle are overall increasing the efficiency of the land by producing food where it couldn’t be produced otherwise, largely consuming calories that could not be used otherwise.
this wouldn’t be true if animals made our existing croplands more efficient or were at the very least neutral.
That’s because it’s not true. A lot of local farmers only survive because they have livestock. Let me ask you a question . Why would a farmer have a milk cow if the milk sold for less than the cost to feed the cow? Because that’s the situation right now in my local farms, and nobody’s selling their cows.
And in case you don’t know the answer, because they’re saving cow manure instead of buying chemical fertilizers. And they’re saving some money on feed by using their crop waste. Ultimately, they’re able to reduce their cost so the milk price is a breakeven, and then the fertilizer is a slight profit. If they got rid of that cow (ok, cows plural. Often 3 or 4 at the farms I’m thinking of), they would go out of business.^___^
important question
Let me ask you a question. What matters to you? Do you really care about what’s good for the environment, or do you just care about people not eating animals? Because if you’re arguing about the environment because you ethically oppose the eating of animals, that’s a tainted argument even if it has facts smattered in, and you have to admit it to yourself.
It’s only worth us having this discussion if you can tell me to my face that the only reason you’re arguing for veganism is environmental. That you don’t have an ethical problem with eating meat and you’re not convinced that meat is unhealthy.
Performing voir dire on someone you are having a discussion is odd. I don’t ask people I’m debating vegan adjacent topics with if they eat meat, that can be statistically presumed. I also don’t assume they can’t say anything true because they have an objective of wanting to continue to eat meat, and that’s often laid bare during or even at the start of discussion. Facts exist separately from the people stating them. Hypocrites can be right. People with biases can be right, and everyone has biases.
I am a vegan but I had been arguing against livestock use from an environmental perspective for many years before becoming a vegan or even a reductionist. In my mind eating animals was something like using disposable plastic. I participated in the use of animals and plastics but thought the only recourse was a legal one. Arguments of animal ethics are what ultimately brought me around to the idea that a personal boycott was ethically obligatory, because the harm to individuals from individuals was easier to see. Though after learning some ideas from utilitarianism related to statistics and commutative events as well as ideas from virtue ethics about modeling behavior and living heterodoxy my stance on boycotts or at least reduction in other areas has changed as well.
I’ll avoid responding to your arguments on the main subject because it would pressure you to respond when you’ve made it clear that you don’t want to continue having the discussion based on who I am. But I’m hoping I’ve answered your important question and given you something to think about on the topic of intellectual honesty.
I don’t ask people I’m debating vegan adjacent topics with if they eat meat
I didn’t ask if you were a vegan. I was asking why you’re repeating arguments I’ve rebutted a dozen times in lemmy. We’re deep enough that no random person is going to read this, so if you’re just arguing for veganism, it can stop now. I need to know if the environmental argument is foundational to you before I waste time repeating stuff I’ve said plenty of times elsewhere, knowing you’ll be the only person to read it.
To be honest, I’ve dealt with the classic 3-leg gishgallop of this topic (environment, health, ethics) enough that I’m learning to disengage fast. I just need to be sure there’s value in the conversation before it just turns into that. That’s not about voir dire. It’s about Street Epistemology. If we’re discussing something non-foundational to you, the conversation is frankly meaningless.
And frankly, I had to ask the question because you are bringing up infamous objections (like “land use” in full ignorance or negligence of marginal land) that are as much a staple of the vegan-missionary movement as… well, anything I hear out of pro-life arguments.
I am a vegan but I had been arguing against livestock use from an environmental perspective for many years before becoming a vegan or even a reductionist
Interesting. Are you of the position that there is no world where even a single livestock animal being consumed is *ever environmentally better than that same animal NOT being consumed? Do you have well-conceived answers to the symbiosis problem and animal population problem? I mean, is it a goal for the Western World’s carbon impact to dip below pre-industrial levels, and do you genuinely think fossil fuel climate change can be circumvented by terraforming our methane footprint artificially? Is there a meaningful view here that might change, or will it remain secondary to your vegan ethical position?
Though after learning some ideas from utilitarianism related to statistics and commutative events as well as ideas from virtue ethics about modeling behavior and living heterodoxy my stance on boycotts or at least reduction in other areas has changed as well.
Peter Singer, I presume? This is actually a separate topic I have some experience discussing. I, too, am largely Utilitarian in my ethical foundation. But I do strongly reject his argument on many grounds. A rejection I don’t want to intermingle with an environmental discussion, if you get my point above about how easily these discussions can turn into a 3-legged stool of constantly rotating complex discussions.
I’ll avoid responding to your arguments on the main subject because it would pressure you to respond when you’ve made it clear that you don’t want to continue having the discussion based on who I am
Sorry to steal your decision to use court terminology, but I object. I simply don’t want to respond if you aren’t arguing for the environment because it matters to you. I need to understand whether you being convinced that consuming some animals is good for the environment would CYV on anything at all, or if you’d just lean on “but I think it’s wrong to consume animals”.
No, I’m a case study of “I actually grew up in a farming community, had enough vegan friends, and came up with my own conclusions” See, I see zealous vegans the same way I see dirty cops or post-1/6 Trump fans. Best-case is deluded, worst case is bad-faith.
One common trend is how much vegans will double- and triple-down on the idea that because they feel veganism is morally superior, it’s actually magically better in every other way, from health to the environment. When you discuss with someone whose “spoke” arguments are based upon what they consider a moral imperative, the truth doesn’t matter.
There’s something wrong with the health/environment/morals tripod of veganism. Everything that is real has pros and cons, and everything that doesn’t have cons is a fiction or exaggeration. The way these moral vegans come out swinging, their description of the vegan reality is indefensible. Eating vegetables is alleged to be tastier, better for the environment, healthier, easier, cheaper, faster, more ethical. Then come the contradictions… people, even experts, who eat meat as part of their healthy diet, farmers that keep livestock (despite having to PAY the government more in taxes, not getting subsidies) because it’s more sustainable for them. The list goes on, until you’re picking the battles based on the things the other side won’t immediately see as willful ignorance.
There’s no element of physical addiction to meat-eating. The supermajority of humans eat animal products because it is the right choice for them, for their health, based upon their morals, and in many cases for their sustainability.
So sorry if “knowing what I’m fucking talking about” is antivegan rhetoric. Have a nice day, I don’t expect a reply.
If you wanted to be honest, it would be “look, I know it’s going to fuck up your ecosystem and local sustainability, but animal lives are important to me” or “look, I know it’s harder to eat healthy and requires more research and supplements, but we can figure it out”. Those are positions I’d respect, if disagree with (because my ethical position, a fairly well-established one, considers eating meat to be perfectly fine)
You’re fine to believe all that, it just comes across as though you’re assuming everyone who eats meat has done the due diligence in finding out what happens behind closed doors. That’s not the case, and it’s too obvious you’re wrapped up in your own views to ever change based on what one guy tells you on the Internet. You have to do the work yourself, but only if you want to, which by now, you can’t.
Which is OK, people who care are putting in the work, and the world will be better for it.
I hope you find compassion one day, because I’m certainly not telling you why you should be.
You’re fine to believe all that, it just comes across as though you’re assuming everyone who eats meat has done the due diligence in finding out what happens behind closed doors
Not really. Actions speak. People who are choosing to eat meat are choosing to do so for some reason. If vegan food is really better than meat in every possible way, nobody would choose to eat meat for any reason.
Someone doesn’t need to be as educated on the meat/vegetable discussion as I am to make those decisions. Obviously I feel the same way about most vegans as you do about meat eaters. I’ve literally had unprepared vegans tell me that it’s better to let overpopulation wrack an area than to hunt and eat deer.
That’s not the case, and it’s too obvious you’re wrapped up in your own views to ever change based on what one guy tells you on the Internet
There comes a point where one is educated enough on an issue that it’s not easy to get them to flip-flop in the opposite direction of all the evidence and their conclusions. That is not the same as closedmindedness or zeal. But more importantly, the “ecology, health, ethics” gishgallop often used in vegan debate is ineffective at doing anything but guilt someone too ignorant to see it happening (which is the whole point I was making tot hat person, who was shifting the topic). Or did you mention ignorance above because it’s about converting those who don’t know better?
Which is OK, people who care are putting in the work, and the world will be better for it.
With all due respect, it’s bad faith to accuse everyone with the opposite view as yours of being uneducated. I have discovered myself to be more educated and prepared than most militant vegans, put in more work, and make the world a better place than they do. The reason is that ultimately, veganism stems from a singular ethical position… not unlike the “single issue voters” so common in modern Democracy. If all you’re seeing is “right and wrong”, you can convince yourself on every other issue. I like to also point out how many good-faith religious folks are convinced homosexuality is harmful because they think it is immoral. Unfortunately, that’s where I see vegans on these topics.
I hope you find compassion one day, because I’m certainly not telling you why you should be.
I think you are exemplifying this remark. You are so zealously and irrationally convinced of this “one and only right morality” that any human who would eat meat has no compassion. Ironically, I used to (and occasionally still do) feel the same way about vegans, since the only workable veganism involved agricultural anti-natalism. You note how above I said I’m more educated on topics than most vegans? The ones I’m not “more educated than” are the real problem here. They’re the ones that, eventually, will admit that their vision of utopia involves preventing farm animals from being born as a better outcome than those animals living a better-than-nature life that happens to end on a dinner plate. I cannot get over the fact that position is the one more lacking of compassion.
So I guess this is the part where I hope YOU find the compassion one day to overcome your squeamishness and do your part to hunt a deer, keep some chickens, or just go to a local butcher to help the entire ecosystem.
True, actions speak. So I do what I can. You probably don’t but that’s an assumption I admit.
You’ve got a lot of assumptions, but that’s OK. Like people choosing to eat meat. I don’t think that, as I say, you’re fine to believe the assumptions you make are fact. Even if they’re anecdotal. Like people don’t need to be educated. I disagree. And it’s proven by the rhetoric used in discussing PETA.
Your “most vegans” argument is moot when as a vegan, the discussions surrounding rewilding are far more common than your slice of a piece of what I’ve talked about with them. As I reinstate, it’s simply anti vegan rhetoric that you’re so on board with, your world view is rocked, and can’t see the forest from the trees.
For clarity, I don’t think you’re an idiot or uneducated, just misguided and have been misinformed for so long, your very core is against the idea, and you’re smart enough to justify why you feel like that.
At the end of the day, you are against veganism, that’s cool imo, but I do hope one day people like yourself can see the fight against oppression doesn’t stop at humans.
True, actions speak. So I do what I can. You probably don’t but that’s an assumption I admit
And this right here is the problem. But you know that and I’m not sure you care.
You’ve got a lot of assumptions, but that’s OK
I’m not the one judging the supermajority of people as “unworthy” and “uneducated”. I make very few assumptions, and even fewer judgements. Look in the mirror.
Even if they’re anecdotal. Like people don’t need to be educated. I disagree.
People don’t need to be propagandized. I’m all about education. I encourage education. For most problems, education is the way out. Listening to someone take their morals and convince you of some hokey pseudo-scientific claim of fact is not education.
As I reinstate, it’s simply anti vegan rhetoric that you’re so on board with
Would you listen to yourself? If someone says something that doesn’t match this clearly fictional view about a meatless-utopia is “rhetoric”. Like I’m reading some “how to screw with perfect people, by Mr. Satan” pamphlets? How about this counter. The vegan side simply doesn’t hold water. Period. That’s it. My so-called rhetoric is just “calling bullshit”.
For clarity, I don’t think you’re an idiot or uneducated, just misguided and have been misinformed for so long, your very core is against the idea, and you’re smart enough to justify why you feel like that.
Why? Because I disagree with vegans? All I see is trollish behavior and downvotes from people who demonstrably show lack of knowledge. When I grew up, my friends were becoming environmental engineers and farmers, and my family struggles have made me acutely aware of the complex nutritional questions that exist. I’m “misinformed” because I’ve been surrounded by experts in the various fields. But I suppose you would tell a PhD in nutrition that they’re misinformed on the health side if they don’t agree with you, and would tell a PhD in Environmental Engineering the same. I bet you would tell a small-time farmer that they’re misinformed about how their negative-margin milk cow (since the strike price of milk is down) is still necessary because it’s the only way their plant crops are profitable.
We’re alllll just misinformed. But the vegans, oh boy, just like the Christians, those vegans know the right of it. And they’ll save my soul if I just let them.
At the end of the day, you are against veganism
Correction. I’m against preachy, militant, veganism. More specifically, I’m against all proselytization, but that from veganism is the worst I’ve seen of late. I have vegans in my family, and I have no problem with them.
but I do hope one day people like yourself can see the fight against oppression doesn’t stop at humans
I already don’t. While you’re fighting to get everyone to stop eating meat, I do my part to fight against Big Ag (meat and plant). I support free range laws that are actually animals getting to live their best lives. I’m against anti-natalism (like PETA and anti-farm initiatives) because that is oppression, too. I fight against preachy vegans because they are oppressing animals in their own way.
Whatever beef… you have with veganism, I don’t need to combat you. There are people that do know the middle way, and live it as much as possible, without needing to be taught. And there are people who will find it and learn from it. You may be one of them, but the energy you put into this back and forth isn’t worth the time, honestly.
You should REALLY write a book, because there is nothing but anguish on your part to gain while messaging me, just as I realised there was nothing more to say 3 weeks ago. It’s quite a shame you haven’t noticed I checked out a while ago upon catching your anecdotal rhetoric, what if I just don’t believe you, you’ve given no evidence to support your claims, and they’re BOLD claims.
I’ve felt no need to explain myself, and if you feel morally inferior, that’s on you. I’m not morally superior, but I strive to be better than I was. There’s the difference.
I wish you the best in your life, even while contributing to unnecessary suffering while using a fantastic brain to justify it.
Things like Impossible Burgers, absolutely. I tried one once and it was so much like an actual meat burger it grossed me out. But I will make a seitan corned beef to put in a Reuben sandwich just because it’s an awesome sandwich.
Hmm I was 27 years a meat eater, advocating for meat consumption in the face of a vegan mate. Saying things like “we need a little bit of meat in our diets…they’re killed humanely…etc”
Took me one moment of realisation, then I dunno, I just tried, not even that hard, vegan 7 years now.
I can see that the transitional foods are a good stepping stone, but imo, the second you see inside the animal agriculture industry without any blinders on (biases), you’ll choose to act within your life, if you have the compassion/empathy to.
If someone sees the reality of what goes on behind closed doors and continues to consume animals in much the same way, it says more about that persons internal morality than anything else.
I’m vegetarian. Western food is so focused on meat that people often have no idea how to make a meal that doesn’t contain it. My mother once asked me how to make a vegetarian version of Chicken Parmesan. So keep the tomato sauce, cheese, and spices, but swap out the chicken with pasta. Congrats you’ve made vegetarian Chicken Parmesan. I like to call it Spaghetti.
I think that speaks to OP’s point: instead of thinking in terms of trying to replicate the meat dish without meat, think in terms of making a vegetable dish that satisfies the same mood.
It’s just funny that someone was looking for a meatless chicken parm because the original recipe was eggplant parm, just someone thought it would be better with meat.
and people get so pissy about like ‘where is muh serving of protein??’ like just because you saw an infograph as a child doesn’t mean you have to have a hunk of a living creature every meal
You know what has protein? Every whole plant food. You don’t need a dedicated part of a meal that is high in protein when the whole meal contains protein.
Different plants have different macros. Ofc there are plants with high protein but don’t go around spouting carrots and fruit are a balanced diet. You need beans, legumes, nuts, etc.
There’s nothing childish about paying attention to macros. If you’ve ever spent time doing any programmed exercising that includes making linear progress, you know the difference protein can make. And it’s hard to achieve even when you’re not extremely limited in ingredients.
I’m not knocking vegan or vegetarian diets. Just saying it’s not at all easy, and that protein matters a lot.
Also most vegetarian Indian food is absolutely loaded with butter/ghee. It’s not “healthy.”
I think the poverty and lack of access to healthcare in some areas might be a bigger drag on life expectancy than cooking with butter, especially when a fair number of Italian dishes also include butter.
And there’s a lot of alternatives for many different prices. I remember how people used to berate me for being vegetarian while growing up, telling me I’d die and whatnot.
I don’t eat a lot of meat, but after hearing arguments like these from vegetarians and vegans, I gave up on not eating meat.
Too expensive to eat vegan and I got really fucking tired of being called fucking stupid for buying meat free alternatives. It’s not worth the effort in the end.
vegan food isn’t expensive. artificial meat replacements are expensive, because you’re paying someone to chemically torture plants until they vaguely remind you of animals. lentils, beans, and other awesome-tasting protein sources are dirt cheap. vegan-first dishes are great and really cheap.
This is not arrogance it’s playful language for humorous effect. The real reason to not eat fake meat is that it usually doesn’t taste very good no matter how you prepare it, whereas traditional vegan food can be amazing
Ignoring the obvious joke you missed. If someone being a little rude is enough to make you completely give up on your ethical/moral stance, you need to grow a spine dude .
If a gay person is an ass to me i dont decide to become homophobic and blame it on them.
I won’t go near the comparison to one’s sexual preference, to another voluntary dietary habits.
But, you’re not wrong. If this was something that was super important to me and life affecting, then you are completely right.
Now, as someone who is just trying to not eat meat for personal and whatever reasons, that’s not how you get people into your cause. I am not bound to it, and the perception of the community is something i get to have liberty with.
How about “well, it’s not an animal. not bad”. Not being me with my kid hearing that her favorite burger patty (the impossible one) is a waste of money and an embarrassment to the real vegans in the middle of the safeway by a random asshole stranger, who had the after thought to explain how tofu is better totally not noticing that his very life is in danger.
Oh yes the voluntary dietary habit of taking a sentient being's life against its will because it's tasty and I can't be bothered to learn how to cook properly using plants.
In fairness, it’s really easy to act like a badass in front of…am I reading that right, some hypothetical guy in Costco who told his daughter she’s not a real vegan?
I didn’t act or anything. I just stood there much like here watching the entitled dietary moron go off.
But I was really annoyed so like the imaginary cool vegan, it was more contexts. But good notes. It was Safeway. No wonder yall are not taken seriously.
Once again, because it’s come up so many times in this thread, not at all vegan, definitely omnivorous, just not someone who assumes their membership in the majority defines them as a victim unlike the coward Wage_slave@lemmy.ml
It wasn’t just the vegan thing though. My kid is autistic and absolutely wouldn’t eat anything other than what she put on her list. Like to the point we had to get her help.
I guess that’s something I shouldn’t have left out. It just wasn’t something that even crossed my mind as I made the comment.
It’s interesting that while you were making this up you couldn’t decide whether your kid was vegetarian or vegan. You’d think with cooking two separate meals every night you’d be familiar with the difference.
It's absolutely trivial to cook meals vegan or vegetarian and simply add meat separately at the end, or not add it at all. What you're describing is just piss-poor meal planning and has nothing to do with the cost of vegetables.
Or you were just buying every prepackaged bit of vegan food in the store.
Which is utterly fucking irrelevant to the idiot-tier statement that somehow vegans/vegetarians don't get enough protein.
Only absolute morons who tie their entire identity to eating meat think that, usually losers that hang out in the comments sections of YouTube channels with names like "Carnivoracious" or "BeardMeat" or "Beardivore" or "MeatyBeardMan." "I eat meat, I have beard, this is my personality, I have nine pounds of undigested meat in my colon and I haven't shit in a week."
"Diet For a Small Planet, however, unfortunately helped create a persistent myth that vegetarians and vegans faced severe challenges when it comes to getting enough protein. Over the next few decades, multiple studies coupled with the lack of vegans dropping dead from acute protein deficiency extinguished that hysteria."
It takes like .2 seconds to verify if your sincerely held religious belief is utter nonsense or not.
No it definitely is a thing, lot of exvegans who find themselves suddenly going very sick until they try meat again and it’s the most delicious cure they’ve ever had
How many people called you stupid for buying meat free alternatives? I largely do not eat meat and I can count on one hand the number of times it has been mentioned in the past decade. It’s also only comparatively expensive because meat is so subsidized.
I mostly do not eat meat because it is fucking terrible for the environment.
Middle of a Safeway once, in line at McDonald’s my ex was called a poser for ordering the veggie burger by someone in line at a fucking McDonald’s (dont care if youre just there for the fries), online community of course adds to it because, well yeah, here we are.
Entitled people have a way of announcing and decrying those below them. Like morons who think Android phones are for the poor.
Meat is pretty much the most expensive protein source. You can get tofu for like 1/5 the price of meat. The other guy summed it up well (although with some sarcasm) that eating vegan is only expensive when you try to replicate the meat. Just eat tofu and you’ll be healthier and richer :)
I got really fucking tired of being called fucking stupid for buying meat free alternatives.
Sorry that you met condescending assholes. Some people just have the urge to feel superior over others for absolutely silly reasons. The rise of meat alternatives is one of the few things that make me optimistic for the future, along with renewable energy, electric cars and heat pumps. Factory farms are so much worse for the environment and animals, of course we should embrace alternatives to the worst option.
Prices also go down with more competition. There basically wasn’t any market for meat alternatives 10 years ago, now it’s growing quite fast. In 5 years, many of them will likely be cheaper than meat.
I mean, the United States has, to be fair, developed a food culture that emphasizes using a lot of meat, especially over the past century or so. It’s not surprising that people from an area that eats so much meat, who go vegan, are going to want to look for ways to still make dishes familiar to them
I think it is also a reason why a lot of vegetarian food options or certain ingredients like tofu in the US are seen as lesser.
Like this isnt a meatless example but how tofu is presented in the west is a good showcase of this disconnect. There are people who dont care for tofu because tofu has been presented to them as a meat fill in. Tofurkey instead of turkey, tofu dog instead of hot dog, tofu nuggest, and etc. And tofu is not meat. It’s tofu. So yeah when you replace a Turkey dinner with tofu and are told its just as good or good enough you start associating it as an inferior tasting meat substitute.
But tofu isnt a meat fill in and in fact many traditional recipes use it in conjunction with meat. Tofu is tofu. It is its own ingredient and recipe,and if you use it as such instead of trying to pretend it’s something else you can do good things.
Like the same goes for a lot of western vegetarian dishes. Instead of leaning into the flavor profile of the dish or digging up some old traditional meatless recipe(of which many exist even western dishes when you consider lent and meatless fridays were a thing traditionally). And dont get me wrong I understand that someone who went vegetarian or vegan may want to emulate a spicy chicken wing, or a burger, but it feels like a lot of the mainstream western options are all just drop in replacements.
Absolutely this. I eat meat, but I really like veg* cooking. I feel like it challenges me in the kitchen and there’s a whole world of veg* dishes especially in mediterranean/middle eastern, south asian and east asian cooking that are just amazing. But the number of wide-eyed vegans who have handed me a lump of some sort of isolated vegetable protein and insisted repeatedly that “it tastes just like meat, you’ll never know” makes me wonder if vegans can actually taste food. I’m sorry, Kaiyleigh, nothing you do to that tofu is gonna make it taste “just like a hot dog”. How about you press it, cube it, roll it in some seasoned corn starch and fry it until it’s a delicious golden brown crunchy little nugget of tofu instead? Let it be what it is rather than trying to force it to be something that it’s not. Either you’re lying to yourself, you’re lying to me or you physically cannot detect flavor compounds with your tongue.
tldr - fuck a vegan, but I’d love another bowl of that lentil dal
But tofu isnt a meat fill in and in fact many traditional recipes use it in conjunction with meat.
My best experiment with tofu to date involved a marinade and replacing half the chicken I would have otherwise used with it in a dish, and cooking it in the drippings from browning the chicken.
Tofu is tofu. It is its own ingredient and recipe,and if you use it as such instead of trying to pretend it’s something else you can do good things.
I’m good with tofu, but my wife HATES the texture of it. Is there some trick to make it less spongy?
Thats a tricky one if they dont like the texture its hard to say. You can maybe make a dish with a less firm tofu thats softer if thats something she’s ok? Maybe do a ma po tofu with rice or something vaguely related.
Have you tried the classic of crispy tofu blocks? Just cube the tofu, toss in cornstarch and fry until the outside is good and crispy. Serve with rice and some kind of sauce or even eat it alone dusted with salt and pepper.
I tried something like that in the oven, with a sort of honey garlic glaze. Crisp outside, but the inside still has that spongy texture she doesn’t like. Maybe if I cut it really fine, into like thin pieces where there’s not much bulk to it, so theres a higher crust:sponge ratio? I hadn’t seen a recipe try really thin pieces, and I just assumed there was a reason.
From where I stand internationally though, it seems like a toxic culture too regarding it… Like, apparently, I’m meant to be considered more macho for eating meat somehow… I’m an omnivore, and I’ll eat what I want (the standard of vegetarian food actually seems much higher)
most of those meals involved meat. So took a bit of relearning. Being able to just make an old thing but with fake meat was nice. Then sometimes brain craves something from child hood, so have to find an alternative.
If its any indication into other factors, every time I try to make butter chicken it ends up tasting like a British persons home made curry recipe so there’s that. Jokes aside as someone who likes cooking, a lot of traditional recipes, of any culture are simply much more labor intensive than slapping a bean patty on a pan then furnishing it. I’d wager the pace of a lot of western lifestyles, the choice gets weighted quickly.
To be fair, a patty sandwich of any type (be it hamburgers, chicken sandwich, beans, or any kind of imitation meat) is going to be similarly labor intensive and time consuming if one had to make the patty and bread oneself rather than being able to just buy them. I’m sure traditional recipes for most cultures can be made similarly convenient if probably somewhat different from their original form, if demand exists for them to be premade and sold that way. There’s a specialty grocery store very close to my home that specializes in Indian food, tho also has some international foods from other places too, and it’s freezer section has all sorts of Indian dishes done up as tv dinners, or premade frozen samosas of various flavors one just has to fry in a pan for a few minutes, among other things.
Yup. I love a good microwaved samosa or Chana masala and it’s easier than grilling a frozen chemical burger frankly. I don’t think convenience is a fair argument here. Microwaved Chana is nowhere as good as a freshly made 3hour dish, don’t get me wrong, but there are convenience options that aren’t vegan chicken nuggets.
I mean comparing a frozen vegetable patty to a whole frozen meal is a bit of a stretch in quality and affordability imo. Honestly a lot of it has to do with things like how many pans and utensils you use too. Even if I make a burger from ground beef its still only one pan, two cutting boards (one for meat one for veg) and all the fresh produce just needs to be washed and cut, if you wanna grill the onions, same pan no problem, all you need is a knife and a spatula. When I tried to make butter chicken the tastiest recipe called for two different marinades and a sauce you make in stages. I can go over the video and look at the kitchen hardware necessary but I think it’s easy to imagine its a lot more. I’ve found quite a few Indian recipes in particular are similar that way so it seemed topical.
Depends on if they’re capitol E English or not, then I’d imagine you’d probably have South Asian and Jamaican styles being dominant. I was referring to the englishmans home cooked take on it. If you want the story, years ago I was in Australia and my neighbors there were UK English, I don’t know how to describe it other than it tasted like my early attempts at traditional recipes. If it helps I remember “Man I did all that and mine still just tastes like someone used a strange ramen flavoring packet.” So that’s probably how I’d describe it.
Yep. It's all about helping people transition. So much of American food culture is centered around burgers, steak, BBQ, etc. It's really hard to just drop all of that on a dime, even if you want to. These products help people with that mental itch.
Welcome to the culture wars. How am I supposed to demonstrate my sigmoid male prowess to fertile young females, if I’m eating a plate of seasoned vegetable mush?
Whereas if it appears to be a juicy slab of meat, I can maintain the veneer of my fragile masculinity. And who knows, maybe one of those cute progressive females will open her legs to me if I appear to care about animals.
Or maybe different cultures just have different palettes and people want to eat food that tastes like what they grew up eating? Maybe we could just… Enjoy both approaches to food? Outside of this meme do you even know with confidence that there aren’t Indians, a country of almost 1.5 billion people, 5x the size of the us, trying to recreate common meat dishes in a vegan way?
Friend, you just complained about the culture war, right before blatantly partaking in it in a wildly nonsensical way.
Not quite the same, but if you want to replace ghee with something vegan, try avocado or coconut oil. There is vegan ghee (made from palm oil I think?) but it’s bad for you the same way old timey margerine is bad.
Incidentally, unprocessed red palm oil could be a nice replacement, but it has a characteristic earthy/almondy taste. I love it on fish dishes but it’s not the taste you expect from Indian food I think.
Think this post confuses veganism and vegetarianism. Also it’s chemicals all the way down. Those spices? Made of chemicals.
Those alternative burgers are actually pretty tasty but also very heavy because they are imitating beef. For American fare I’d generally prefer a sandwich with deli style meats made out of tofu or seitan, or a bean burger.
Tofu has a lot of range, there are many types of tofu you just won’t see that many in a Western market. There are also a lot of ways to prepare tofu, it’s very versatile.
I get that it’s a meme, but what’s the problem? I’m vegetarian/flirt with veganism; it’s purely for moral/ethical/environmental reasons.
Indian food is delicious. An Impossible burger on a pretzel bun dripping with grilled onions, avocado, vegan aioli and mustard with a side of steak fries? That’s also delicious, in my opinion.
Meat is delicious, and that’s not at all incompatible with my reasoning for being vegetarian.
For real. I was raised on slop, now that I’m a vegetarian, it doesn’t mean I don’t like the foods I grew up eating.
I guess the point is that we don’t need to rely on expensive substitutes made by the same corps that own slaughterhouses to make tasty, nutritious vegan food
The problem is that you’re still fixated on the form and experience of meat. A full mindset change is more robust.
It’s like how fake leather can help replace and reduce real leather usage, but if the trend of desiring leather died out in the first place, the whole problem is dropped altogether
not entirely, as leather is still a wildly useful fabric and material for many uses which synthetic leather can serve(to a greater or lesser extent, granted), but only in specific cases can meat not be replaced/not replaced effectively
I don’t want to stop eating meat, I want to stop the exploitation and suffering of animals.
While I want to stop the exploitation of animals more than I want to eat meat, if there is a path that allows me to do both, I will have a preference for that path.
The same goes for leather. It’s use isn’t worth what has to be done to create it, but it is a fantastic material with a lot of versatility that’s better than near all alternatives in plenty of applications. Fake leather and synthetic leather are wonderful innovations because we can enjoy the benefits without the negatives, and that’s something to be encouraged rather than avoided.
I get it but this is an emotional appeal. I’m just trying to explain the logic of what was being said here
I like the fake meat stuff too, and often try to make it myself even though I’ve never had meat on purpose in my life and actually throw up if I do accidentally. I just like the kitchen chemistry aspect of it I guess
I’m not saying we should stop making vegan alternatives to meat. I’m saying people should stop desiring meat or meat alternatives. Because logically that desire of meat is the cause of both meat and meat alternatives. Like how the cure to nicotine addiction isn’t nicotine patches alone
Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes. But I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether. If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven’t let go of meat entirely, I found it easy to get back to meat eating.
Being called stupid and criticizing my decisions kept me from “being brave”
Like “You’re not good enough until you are this much” bullshit. If that’s the attitude, then fuck no. Why do I wanna go even further into things if y’all are assholes right off the bat. Like, no. fuck you. If it’s this complicated then I am going to do what has been a life of hassle free eating. My guilt is very easily wiped away like that.
I’m vegan and I eat plenty of fake meat. I’m vegan because I think it’s right, not because I dislike meat. Don’t listen to OP. You are good enough, and any reduction in the consumption of animal products is better than no reduction.
I went through a long period of transition before cutting out animal produce entirely, but have now been vegan for a good few years.
I went through a long period of transition before cutting out animal produce entirely, but have now been vegan for a good few years.
This is the way. It’s like a relationship: if you have to force it, it’s gonna be shit.
I cut down on meat significantly in the past 3 years. I eat mostly vegetarian, fish once a week and meat every once in a while. Overall, my meat consumption decreased by about 90% which I call good enough and I don’t really have the intention to change that.
I’ve been talking a bunch of shit out of annoyance. And there’s a bunch of posts echoing exactly what I was complaining about.
Even getting called a liar.
This is the only reasonable or polite response I’ve seen. Missed one maybe?
So thanks. I really shouldn’t be painting the entire lifestyle with the same brush, because well here we are.
So I’ll shut up, and say thanks. And for the record, my kid still makes me get the impossible patties. She’s not veg anything, so ita just cause they’re good and that on its own should be good enough. Not all is lost in my removed.
If I’m at a barbecue and someone is grilling up impossible burgers, I’m not going to request they instead make a bowl of curry for me. Likewise when I grill for people.
That is not at all what this is like, completely ignorant metaphor
Imagine someone addicted to eating their poop. Perhaps they are reforming their ways, and for some time they take half measures like eating smelly chili. Eventually they realize their unhealthy fixation isn’t really overcome by this, so they move onto food that doesn’t resemble poop, like a salad maybe
Animal products have good taste for most people. The issue with them is not their taste, or the actual act of consumption of them, it’s the fact that their production necessarily involves the torture and killing of sapient beings.
If you can have “meat” without such effects (so, those fake vegan “meats”), then there is nothing wrong with it at all (I still prefer most of the time my rice, beans, tofu and TSP if only due to the cost but again, nothing wrong with it, quite the contrary).
I was half-joking, but yes it was ignorant? Lesbians don’t choose their sexuality, but people do choose to be vegan. There is an ignorance of sexuality and diet there. Also, people do try going vegan, eat some fake meat and cheese, and eventually go back to eating meat because they still crave meat in itself. This does happen. This is also related to those people who sneak in or revert to eating meat because of some cultural or family tradition, or peer pressure from friends. One vegan I knew who was going on for 25 years ate a steak to impress his business friends instead of speaking up to say he didn’t want to eat at a meat-only restaurant. Take a look at my other comments here, I am speaking about this topic at the social level, not how individuals like the taste of meat or fake meat.
there is nothing wrong with it at all
Yeah I know, I have been saying that. This is not a moral argument. This is a rational one, and one perhaps from a medical or public health perspective: the cultural desire to obtain “meat” as a thing in itself is the cause for the demand of meat or meat alternatives. It’s great that under capitalism that solutions can be provided via the market and supply-and-demand, whatever, but it doesn’t address the reason why there is a demand in the first place.
How I know it’s a cultivated desire: it doesn’t exist across cultures. Hell it doesn’t exist within the western fake meat market itself: how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there? Or exotic meats ie objects perfectly engineered to mimic dog, cat, or even human meat? I’m sure human taste buds can enjoy long pork, real or fake. Yet basically no one is asking for this right?
how much fake seafood do you see engineered out there?
Crab sticks are usually fake, but generally, fish is harder to immigrate accurately than other meats, and there’s less demand for it since people in the west don’t generally eat tons of fish anyway.
Less demand for real fish means less demand for imitation fish, though there is apparently a company somewhere making lab grown salmon and tuna.
Right so, I have literally never eaten meat in my life. I was raised vegetarian. I still think plant based burger patties or sausages or whatever are delicious. Its literally just food. You gonna think that I’m “relying” on meat substitutes or “haven’t let go of meat entirely” when I haven’t even eaten meat before? :P
Just let people enjoy things! Plant based “meat” doesn’t hurt anyone and its a great option to add to your choices of meals.
Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes
That’s good.
I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether
That’s bad.
Now, firstly, thank you for defining a lot of people cowards.
Secondly, while I like indian food, I like meat more. And I liked it since forever. If I can have the delicious taste of meat in my plate without killing an animal, that’s great. Fantastic! I’m eagerly waiting for lab crafted meat any day. I’m willing to pay it more than real meat, because I’m not fond of killing living beings to eat them. But if that’s not yet possible, I’d still have my steak and my hamburger.
Bravery has nothing to do with it. It tastes good, and there’s no harm to any animals. So why not eat it? Denial for the sake of denial is not a virtue.
If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven’t let go of meat entirely, and it would be easy to get back to meat eating.
That’s like saying that if you enjoy shooting people in video games, then you’re one step away from shooting people in real life. I’ve been eating fake meats for almost a decade now, and I’ve never been tempted to eat real meat.
I know how horrible and senseless factory farming is, and I have images of the slaughtered seared into my memory from vegan documentaries. Why would I go back to that when I can have substitutes that are just as good, if not better?
I can’t really answer the question of why, but the sample set of people I know who switch to vegetarianism and veganism bears out that the ones who rely in fake meats much more frequently switch back than those who focus on learning to cook foods that don’t imitate meat.
On the counterargument, I did miss cheese quite a bit, and learning to culture my own vegan cheeses hasn’t led to buying animal milk cheeses again, so ymmv
It wasn’t meaningless, and I went out of my way to make clear the sample size wasn’t statistically significant.
The point was that the parent comment implied there was no reason to start eating meat again after making a moral choice not to. My anecdote shows that some people do anyway, therefore there must be a reason.
That in my experience they tended to be the people who relied on meat substitutes was presented as an observation of interest, not as hard evidence of universal truth.
Good job but not everyone has the mental fortitude you have displayed. I know plenty of people who tried going vegan, ate the fake meat and egg stuff, and just went back to the real stuff for the taste
Anyways it’s not about the individual level, it’s more the social ie the social ingraining to have the form and experience of meat contributes to the “culture” and demand of meat
Do you think that you could’ve gotten those people converted to an Indian diet, and they would’ve remained vegan? Getting people to go vegan in the first place is extremely difficult. Try getting them to go vegan and replace their diet with Indian food.
Yeah, if they were Indian. The culture around meat is different than in the West eg. some people only eat meat on a certain day or weekend. Even then, the approach is that meat is disgusting and needs to be cooked and spiced thoroughly before consuming anyhow. And there is already a long and popular tradition of simple alternatives to meat dishes like using potatoes or paneer (or “soy paneer” aka tofu to make it vegan)
Again, my point is that it is not about the individual but the social ingraining and pressure around meat as a category in itself for individuals
Meat is generally spiced more heavily in warm climates because it spoils faster and hot spices both preserves meat by killing bacteria and disguise a certain degree of spoilage.
I would be surprised if the trend towards hot spices in a country that is generally both warm and humid is because of a difference in palette rather than the reasons above.
The fake stuff (and cultivated meat for that matter) are getting closer to parity every year. You don’t go back to something “for the taste”, if the alternative you switched to offers a near identical experience.
Okay but we aren’t there yet and the vegans who I know who have broken their mental attachment to this meat “culture” have not even been tempted to go back once compared to those others
I’d argue that the fake meat stuff has hurt veganism to at least some extent because it’s marketed so heavily and people think it’s the only way to eat vegan. You can see how prominent the ”all vegan food is processed” and ”it’s too expensive to be vegan” arguments have become, even in this thread.
My only problem with Indian food. Whenever I try a restaurants it’s shit. But when my coworkers would bring in a feast on Diwali, it was my favorite time of year.
I can’t find any restaurants that taste even similar to their home cooked meals.
That’s my experience as well. The food my Pakistani friend cooks is amazing but when I order the same thing at a restaurant it looks delicious but it tastes like poking your tongue out the window. I guess restaurants has to cater to western palates to make money and many westoids have very low spice tolerance.
Yeah, the same goes for Korean food. I think a lot of it has to do with the quality of produce. In the west produce is often picked before it’s ripe because we have to ship it hundreds of miles. They also tend to change the spices and sweetness to accommodate western pallets.
That may be more of a problem with the restaurants where you live. I live in San Antonio and we have dozens and dozens of exceptional Indian restaurants where everything feels like it’s a home cooked meal. I definitely miss Diwali before the pandemic though. My old company had a lot of Indian workers and the spread of food they would bring in was always incredible.
I don’t know what country you’re in, but lots of Indians in the UK are actuall run by Bangladeshis and the food is a bit middling. Once you find a good one you become loyal.
Yeah, that’s why things like Indian, Chinese and West Indian cuisine became parts of British cuisine bu osmosis is it? Get to fuck with this racist nonsense.
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