The danger isn’t to the cats, it’s to everything else. Ecologically speaking, cats are an invasive apex predator. They absolutely wreak havoc on local bird populations.
Cats survived before us by hunting small mammals and small birds, and they are very effective at getting fed.
The motivation at the core of naming owners of outdoor cats as irresponsible is a sharp decline in songbird populations in direct proportion to the increase in outdoor cat population.
Cats survived before us by hunting small mammals and small birds, and they are very effective at getting fed.
And, conversely, the prey evolved to avoid cats. So it is only a problem if you take cats to a place that historically did not have them. In fact, removing a predator from an ecosystem it used to keep under check can be just as devastating as introducing a foreign species.
That’s not what I’m saying. Not only the USA. Other places where domestic cats are very new, like USA, NZ, etc also probably shouldn’t do outdoor cats.
In countries where cats are native, they have significantly less impact on wildlife, or at the very least form a part of an ecosystem rather than being a manual introduction (admittedly one complication here is cat populations grouping up in suburban areas). As for safety for the cats, in their native countries they don’t have any serious predators to harm them.
I don’t know if Finland is considered native for cats but it’s against the law to let cats roam freely because there’s a very real risk of them getting injured, disease or dying. Not just from predators but from humans and cars and so on. A dead cat on the side of the road is a too common of a sight. I think the effect on wildlife is seen as secondary and the welfare of the cat is the foremost reason for it.
I live in the UK where there are an estimated 10.8 million cats and have literally never seen “a dead cat on the side of the road”. I appreciate that it is a real risk and that it does happen, but you’re either blowing things out of proportion or there is something weird going on with Finnish cats and or Finnish drivers.
Statistically only 25% of road traffic accidents involving cats are fatal, so the chances are good the cat can survive with urgent care - instead of being left to suffer a painful death.
I was just showing you that there’s a lot of cats dying from accidents with cars. A lot more getting injured from it. And it’s just one hazard of many. That’s why it’s not seen as responsible pet ownership (and not legal) where I live to let them roam without supervision. Could get hit by a car and suffer horribly from it without you being able to do anything about it, which would be horrific.
What’s really more selfish and entitled? Imprisoning an animal for life in return for an increased 0.5% of safety or letting it makes its own choice?
I mean getting a cat is selfish to begin with since you are getting yourself a pet after all, but as a pet owner you’re supposed to take as good care of them as possible. It’s like with kids. Once you’ve made the decision to get one you’re responsible for it and it would be silly to expect a small child to make the decisions. You’re the one who is responsible for their well-being.
If we’re going to get philosophical, is there truly such a thing as an unselfish act?
So you wouldn’t let a kid ever do anything that had any sort of risk at all? Do you know how many children die in RTAs each year? Would you stop your child from ever walking down the street or being in a car or bus?
If not, why is it ok to put your own child at risk of an RTA but not a cat?
We don’t have to get philosophical. It’s just that here you’re not supposed to let cats roam freely without supervision because there’s a fair risk of injury, disease or death and if those happen you might not be in position to help. So it would be irresponsible pet ownership to put them under unnecessary risk.
Uhhh I wouldn’t let either roam freely and unsupervised? Seems like the obvious answer to me. Leaving your small child without supervision is guaranteed to get child services called on your. It’d be irresponsible as fuck.
78 children died on the roads in the UK last year. Presumably most of them were supervised at the time.
I’m making the argument that if safety is your only priority that you would never allow a child anywhere near a road, nor would you ever let them travel in a vehicle on the roads. Please understand that I’m not talking about supervision, I’m making the argument that you can guarantee that your child will not die in a road traffic accident if you refuse to ever let them leave the house.
There is a balance to make between safety and freedom that you are being willfully ignorant of.
You right now are claiming the stance that responsible pet ownership or responsible parenthood or in this case not allowing a cat or a small child to roam freely without supervision means you shouldn’t allow them to do anything. And that’s not what it is about.
You don’t allow either of them to freely roam without supervision because you’re unnecessarily putting them in danger of injury, disease or death.
If you want to get a cat, a safer way to satiate their curiosity and need of activity would be to spend time with them, give them activities and walk them outside. Not leaving them for their own and hope they’ll be fine. That’d be considered neglectful here.
You are correct in that I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. This is what I originally said about kids
I mean getting a cat is selfish to begin with since you are getting yourself a pet after all, but as a pet owner you’re supposed to take as good care of them as possible. It’s like with kids. Once you’ve made the decision to get one you’re responsible for it and it would be silly to expect a small child to make the decisions. You’re the one who is responsible for their well-being.
You are responsible for their well being. You wouldn’t let a small child roam freely outside without supervision. That would be irresponsible. It’s the same with a cat.
If your kid never leaves the house then they will not die in a road traffic accident. I can’t put it more simply than that.
I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion or the point about kids. I wasn’t talking about never leaving the house. I talked about roaming around freely without supervision.
The point youre making is brainless shit, if you think a child is of equivalent risk as a cat to a car.
Did you think that through for even a second? I can tell a young child “hold my hand and stay out of the road.” The child understands that, and I know the degree to which the child will listen to me.
The fuck do you do with a cat? Are you meowing at it? It doesnr speak, its not human.
Dont get pissy just because your point turns to mush at a lazy flick of water.
In the UK, the RSPB determines no negative impacts on bird populations. And the ecosystem is irrecoverably damaged from 3000 years of human impact on a relatively small island. Unlike new colonies like NZ, USA etc.
The UK is losing its wildcat population because of british arrogance about cats.
Youre also bringing in all your local predators into human settlements with the free food that cats become. Foxes love outdoor cats, theyre easy meals. You know what else loves cats? Tires. Smears a cat like jam.
But whats another destroyed ecosystem to the brits? Yall love ruining ecosystems, may as well fill your own backyard with piss.
The wildcats are in Northern Scotland. I’d be OK with the Scots banning outdoor cats.
Foxes like bins, they don’t fight back.
I’ve seen maybe 1 domestic cat hit by a car, I’ve seen hundreds of hedgehogs, foxes, badgers and deer. That’s not an outdoor cat problem.
It’s easy to sit on a moral high horse about a country you don’t really know anything about. We didn’t come to this land 300 years ago. The concept of an intact ecosystem vanished about 1000 years ago. It is a completely different island. The best we can do is keep the last of our wild species ticking over.
Unlike the Americans, who exploited and continue to exploit one of the most beautiful lands in the world, when they should have known better.
The wildcats are now surviving in northern scotland. That was not their original range.
Your lot thought a serial killer was on a cat mutilation spree, for 4 years, only to find out it was a fox that wasnt hiding its kills. So… No, sorry, you dont actually seem to know the country you live in very well. Foxes eat cats like candy, they just prefer to hide while they eat.
But Im glad cat deaths only count when you see them, Im sure you cover your eyes often.
“Unlike the americans.” Lol, ok bud. Because I know from actual formerly british researchers that you take care of your ecosystem as well as well as you take care of your relationship with the mainland.
You’re uninformed. Cats co-evolved with humans to serve a job (pest control, in exchange for safety and the occasional bit of food). There have only been fully indoor cats for a few hundred years. Not all cats have to have a job, but some WANT one, just like dogs. We should let them.
My cat is angry with me if I don’t let him spend at least 12 hours a day roaming and catching bugs and mice. He has neighbor cat friends that he goes to see. Why would I deprive him of that?
“Outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild”
You shouldn’t be proud of contributing to the extinction of animals…
Your cat is your property. Keep it in your property. If your pet becomes my pest, it will be dealt with as such. I once had a neighbor’s cat almost rip through my window screen to get inside and go after my pet parrot. If the cat had made it inside, he would not have made it out alive.
Then I could return it’s corpse to you, and you can tell me all about how they evolved alongside humans, and how that means you’re entitled to let your pet fuck up my yard, home and pets
Scientists curating religion? Grifter cults die, only vegan, wicca and Buddhism remains as religions, but everything is well-recorded and studied in its sunset.
Military curating education? “IM DOING MY PART!”
Military curating science? MOAR BOMMS
We could rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock the shit out of this. We could, but should we?
Scientists curating religion? Grifter cults die, only vegan, wicca and Buddhism remains as religions, but everything is well-recorded and studied in its sunset.
Conjecture, or did this happen? If it happened, where and when?
There was a BBC documentary a few years ago where they gave GPS tracking collars to a bunch of cats in a neighbourhood and tracked where they went. Each of the cats had their own territory and favourite locations.
I loved that doc! It was fascinating seeing the vast differences in territory. I remember one cat who travelled something like a mile back and forth every day on a really narrow area. There was also a pair of cats that had worked out a little territory share amongst themselves, patrolling the same area but always 12 hours apart from each other.
Murder local wildlife, cause property damage to neighbors, kill neighbors pets, spread disease. Roaming cats suck, and so do their entitled owners who think that everyone’s property belongs to their pet
While we’re at it, let’s get rid of birds that shit on everything, deer that eat our gardens, raccoons that get in our trash, skunks that dig up our grass …
They brought up how cats disturb the ecosystem and spread disease. You brought up how other animals can disturb people’s capital. These two are not equivalent.
It’s entitled of YOU too think that the land, plants, wildlife, and ecology these creatures have lived off of for millennia belong to you. We all share a planet, it’s not up to humans to be the arbiters of who can have what and how much and at what time etc etc .
Cats may not be sapient animals, but they are sentient.
No, sorry. We’ve unintentionally thrown so much of the world off balance by importing creatures that were never in certain places, that we must bear responsibility to bring things back to the balance they were at before we got there, particularly now that we know better.
If that’s not possible, we’ll do our best to get there. Where are the dodos, buddy? Keep your stupid cats indoors, and stop bothering the local ecosystem more than we already have.
we must bear responsibility to bring things back to the balance they were at before we got there
The idea that nature was in some sort of balance before humans came along is a common misconception. Most ecosystems are dynamic, and change over time. What we are doing is accelerating that change to a dangerous level.
This might seem like an academic distinction, but many conservationists have caused more harm than good by trying to ‘freeze’ ecosystems at a state that existed at some fixed point in the past. I believe it was George Monbiot who pointed out that the margins of many British roads had higher plant and insect diversity than many ‘protected’ areas.
Or, see the wildfires in North America, caused largely by prevention of natural wildfires, resulting in a century of surplus of dead organic matter and primed with climate change-induced drought.
Friend, cool it with the pedagogy. If one understands the idea of ecosystems at multiple scales, it follows implicitly that one understands the systems are inherently dynamic.
The point still stands: we’ve got to understand the environs we’ve rapidly destabilized and do something to limit our negative influence. Ergo: keeping stupid cats indoors helps the stressed systems by reducing the load caused by a bored apex predator.
Oops I forgot my point in saying all that, which was that if cats have become naturalised to your local ecosystem, then removing them could make things worse. (And by the way, cats are not apex predators.)
By the way, actually, an apex is also known as the summit or peak of a curve, which domestic cats can generally be considered as they are rarely (though not never) predated upon. Wasn’t clear that you understood that, but now you do!
Cats are not apex predators. They have predators in both their natural range and some of their introduced ranges. Cats bury their poop (probably) so they don’t broadcast their presence to any nearby predators.
Blah blah blah, legally your cat is your PROPERTY. And if your pet becomes my pest on MY property, it will be dealt with as such. I don’t live in the wild, I live in my home on my property, keep your shit bag cat off of mine.
I guess some cats love to piss on doors but I don’t think much if any property damage is being done by pet cats. I don’t think I have ever heard of a cat kiling a pet either.
Cats should be indoor only because they are murder hobos when it comes to wild birds and small animals.
Spreading diesease I can’t comment on. What diesease do cats kept as pets spread?
Roaming pet cats scratch screen doors, destroy door mats, piss on doors, shit in gardens, kill wildlife for sport, fight other cats, catch diseases from other cats (pet and feral), get pregnant, get hit by cars, get mauled by dogs. All of these things happen even in countries where cats are “native”.
Find/replace cat/human. You are a clown to even deign to compare the negative environmental impact of a fucking cat to what we have done to everything we touch as a species
My neighbors cats used to wreck my herb garden and such. One of them once tried to rip through my window screen to get inside my house and get my pet parrot. I would have made that cat disappear if he had gotten in, and his owner would have never known what happened, and that would be their own fault
Can you imagine if dog owners just opened the door at night, and let their dogs fuck off to do whatever? They’d rightly be charged and have their pets taken away
Little caesars is just greese and cardboard. Their dough is cardboard, the sauces are greese, the menu is colored greese on cardboard, the windows are cardboard.
We have 3 indoor/outdoor cats because we’ve just always had indoor/outdoor cats and I never really thought about it.
Being on more cat-related Reddit and Lemmy communities, I’ve seen more and more of the arguments for keeping cats as indoor-only, and it’s been making me think more about how to care for cats we adopt.
From what I’ve seen of the discussions, a lot of them seem to center around urban areas and towns, where there’s a high population density. Some arguments also seem to be based off the assumption that the pets aren’t spayed or neutered.
We live in the middle of nowhere and all our cats are fixed as soon as possible (we’ve had kittens sometimes and they stay inside until then).
Is there different logic for this situation, or is it the same advice to always keep them indoors?
I think we have coyotes around, but I can only remember 1 or 2 cats disappearing, and I assumed it was because they were old and didn’t want to die inside.
The “catio” idea people have been bringing up seems like it’s worth a try, but we need to get our deck repaired for that I think.
If you have a big enough space and want to make a sun room for human use, Ive seen lots of sun room modifications that make little side slots for cat lounging and climbing.
And feeders for local wildlife nearby give them free reality tv
Afaik, the best is to give them enough space but it should be enclosed. They pose a threat to wildlife to some extent, and some of the wildlife can harm them, besides an obvious possibility of being traumatised or lost.
Not all cats are killing machines but with 3, chances are at least one of them is. On the other hand, an outdoor life is probably much more fulfilling for a cat.
At a minimum, make sure they have bells around their collar so it warns the local wildlife.
You know, I actually thought about trying to make a product that would have a camera on the cats head and beep aggressively the moment it would detect a bird.
There’s one theory that outdoor cats could be what allows the avian flu to become transmissible to humans which would cause a worldwide pandemic comparable to the black plague in terms of death toll. So there’s that.
Obviously there’s the safety aspect of keeping them indoors, they usually live longer. Aside from that, they’re also extremely efficient killing machines. The damage outside cats do to native animal populations is huge.
Outdoor cats are the number one killer of native species. They have contributed to the extinction of numerous species. Not to mention there are coyotes, cougars, bears, and hawks that can harm or even kill your cat. Outdoor cats also are a vector for diseases and parasites that can seriously harm them, or humans.
Pets should be kept indoors, for their safety, for the safety of the environment, and for your safety.
Are these cats native (or naturalised) to your local ecosystem? If wherever you live has had cats for a hundred years or so, the local wildlife would have adapted to them. Otherwise, cats can damage the local ecosystem.
Do you rely on the cats to suppress vermin (rats, squirrels, small birds, etc.)? Even if your cats aren’t actively killing them, their mere ‘patrolling’ can drive these pests away. But if you keep them indoors, you lose this protection.
Are there any local predators that are particularly good at catching cats?
If your answers are yes, yes and no, then let your cats out. If they are no, no and yes, keep them in as far as possible.
I’m not really sure how long housecats have been around in this area. I think historically there were a lot of farms here (in the 1800s) so they may have had cats, but I don’t have historical data.
We didn’t get cats to hunt down mice, but it’s pretty rare that we see them, and it’s an old farmhouse, so maybe we’re relying on their hunting implicitly? I’ve occasionally seen them catch and eat mice around the yard, and sometimes they bring one to the door to show off.
There are supposedly coyotes around, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one here, and we’ve only ever had cats just disappear a couple times, and they were already 17-19. The bigger danger seems to be other outdoor cats (not sure if they’re feral or not) that one of ours occasionally fights with, but the vet knows they go outdoors, and they’re up-to-date on all their shots.
but it’s pretty rare that we see them, and it’s an old farmhouse, so maybe we’re relying on their hunting implicitly?
The presence of your cats is probably keeping the mice away.
The bigger danger seems to be other outdoor cats
Cats have their territories and defend them aggressively. Make sure your cats are spayed, but from what I’ve seen even this doesn’t reduce aggression in females.
I suspect the middle of nowhere might be worse given that the wilife there might not see a lot of cats normally and could have more vulnerable populations. Probably depends where you live, but if it has rare wildlife you don’t see much elsewhere your kitty is possibly bad news for them. Also depending on where you live the wildlife can be dangerous for tje cat too. Eagles and snakes are a worry.
Unless you live in the native original range for cats, and your local region has zero automobiles, and you have no issue paying vet bills for random illness or parasite infections, then sure. Its probably not that big a risk to let your cat out unsupervised.
Brits are very arrogantly incorrect about their cat care. They are driving local wildcats extinct, and feeding their pets to local foxes, badgers, and car wheels.
You can still supplement outdoor time for your cat tho. Harness/leash training isnt too difficult, just go in areas you dont expect dog walkers. And you can also build catios, outdoor spaces that are fenced in.
It is not their habitat, from experience I have had many cats, and in my opinion it is better to be able to leave them free so that they can go in and out without going where it needs to be clean.
Can confirm. Cats always choose you, but sometimes it’s more forcefully. This big boy busted through an open window, used the liter box, and proclaimed himself king.
Mine was hiding herself in my garage. At least the younger one, Siegfrieda; our old lady Kika was adopted almost like you would adopt a dog, but from a home owner instead of a pet shop. (Her mum’s owner took a bit too long to spay her cat.)
What do you spend money on? After I bought my piano and bench, I haven’t really spent any more money on it. Although the piano and bench are more than enough to call the hobby “expensive”.
It’s more like cheap keyboard -> cheap digital piano -> not cheap digital piano -> baby grand and then the sky’s the limit after that! Also you’ll probably need a bigger house at some point.
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