lemmy.one

jose1324, to linuxmemes in Linus does not fuck around

What a toxic ass message. If he was my boss I would not tolerate this. It’s weird how many dickriders here are defending him here

WoahWoah, (edited )

Jose1234, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

ignotum,

Whoa WhoaWhoa, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

It’s a mistake alright - by the boss. How long have you been an employee? And you still haven’t learned the first rule of employment?

We never EVER blame the employee. How hard can this be to understand?

lemmesay,
@lemmesay@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

if only this were true.
fingers will always be pointed at us developers even as management takes full credits for the success every other time. :(

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

So Linus should have sided with someone who in regression report of KDE using 100% CPU starts blaming pulseaudio and opensuse and double down on blaming pulseaudio? Instead of fixing syscall returning completely unrelated error code. It’s like if your router crashed with message “there is no milk in your fridge”.

Skates,

There’s a difference between disagreeing with someone and insulting and attacking someone, and if you can’t tell that there’s a difference you can go fuck yourself with a cactus, you cumdrowned dicksphincter.

WoahWoah,

uis, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

cRazi_man, (edited )

Fix your fucking comment and don’t ever blame OP.

Johanno,

I mean he went ballistic, but how long did he tell Mauro? I would have fired Mauro instead.

bouh,

Honestly, if such incompetent developers weren’t as arrogant as to argue how their bullshit is the right way to go, I would agree with you. But instead their bullshit philosophy is the expected way to work in many places, and it’s the cancer of computer development, so the anger is deserved IMO.

Synthead,

For sure. It’s funny in a way, but this is not a great way to treat folks that are trying to contribute, often on their own time. This could have been rephrased in so many other ways where Linus doesn’t come off as a total jerk, and still be “right” with the same message.

barsoap,

This is a message to an @redhat address, as you might notice. Mauro gets paid to work on the kernel and is not a noob who doesn’t know better, either, he’s a maintainer who fucked up basic maintenance.

Synthead,

Neat.

Linus could also be kinder.

barsoap, (edited )

I just wish for all of us to become more accustomed to working on ourselves instead of projecting the need to develop virtue on others. Linus actually did it, doesn’t mean that he was an asshole before. Brash, sure, crass, yes, but actual assholes don’t calm down as easily.

Synthead, (edited )

I kindly disagree with most of what you said. Linus is brilliant, and I appreciate his contributions not just to technology and freedom but also to society. However, this does not pardon the hardships he has also brought upon others.

It’s important to be honest in code reviews, but his language, while also honest, goes far and beyond that. We’re doing ourselves a disservice defending this behavior as if it’s a standard of communication quality that people should strive for, or learn how to behave like.

barsoap, (edited )

Current-day Linus wouldn’t react much differently. Cut the “shut the fuck up”, the one or other “fuck” (but not all, some need to be there for emphasis), done. It’s the real personal shit, the “should be aborted retroactively” stuff, that he cut out. “Obvious garbage and idiocy” is a technical term, programmers apply it to their own work all the time. Compilers are more technical in their language but we know what they mean.

And was this mail, seen in its total impact, a hardship? He went down hard, yes, and thousands upon thousands of Linux users breathed a sigh of relief, seeing that Mauro’s attitude towards userland doesn’t fly.

The hardest-hitting sentence in that mail is actually “You have shown yourself to not be competent in this issue”. Absolutely devastating. Taking context into account it’s the equivalent of telling a professional cook that their ingredients suck, what they did with them sucks, and most of all that the gall which which they claimed that the customer is wrong about their dinner sucking is completely, and utterly, unprofessional.

Of course that’s hard on Mauro. There’s no way to tell someone about such an epic cock-up without being hard. But not going that far, avoiding that hardship for some notion of civility, now that would be right-out cruel.

Synthead, (edited )

Please defend these statements for me. I’m having a hard time understanding how this is language we should strive for in a code review, even with your explanation.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/cce0ae58-03af-4db9-b32f-7cf0f0a46fbd.jpeg

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/54556971-ac3c-42a1-8668-3a7c4c8c3b4a.jpeg

Additionally, if you can give me any pointers on how I can communicate this way, I’m all ears and would appreciate the help.

barsoap,

It’s not a code review. Mauro was gaslighting userspace devs, pretending that kernel bugs he introduced were their fault, and at the end of it all he agrees with Linus.

As to tone: How is “this is not up for discussion” and “obvious mistakes and thoughtlessness” any better? As a reader I’d be inclined to think that you think of me as having the emotional maturity of a toddler.

Synthead,

I believe that excellent communication can be had without engineers swearing at each other, and I don’t think there are is any good rationale that warrants such behavior. You believe that there is a time and purpose for the style of conversation that Linus portrayed, and it is warranted and effective behavior.

I’m going to agree to disagree from here. Thanks for the conversation.

barsoap, (edited )

and I don’t think there are is any good rationale that warrants such behavior

For one, the boss setting the tone as to include “shut up” means that you won’t get written up for responding in a similar register. It allows for emotionality, instead of burdening the recipient of the dress-down not just with addressing their own behaviour, but also the emotional labour to respond in a way the tone police deems acceptable. Maybe paradoxically (for people lacking emotional intelligence), that makes emotional responses less likely as the recipient isn’t as emotionally boxed in, doesn’t see walls in every direction.

The line that you shouldn’t cross is making things personal – talking about what someone (presumably) is, instead of what they did. But that applies to any register, “Please come to HR to discuss your identity” isn’t someone anyone should ever hear. Persons can be demeaned and belittled, but not behaviour: Behaviour doesn’t have emotions, dignity, whatever.

Potatos_are_not_friends, (edited )

No one is arguing that Linus isnt a total jerk.

Just like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and even Ol Musky…

We can be better. We can both be a community that is extremely direct with our core values and code it well, but we can also treat people right.

It’s a reality in many places. And it’s thanks to the many many many assholes that I listed above that brought this change.

JustZ,

Not sure those three names belong in the same list.

skippedtoc, (edited )

Nah, if you were spouting bullshit your boss won’t tolerate you.

Linus never mails random contributers working on their own time. There are different maintainers for that.

Linus sends mail to people working under him directly.

glasgitarrewelt,

Calling a bunch of people ‘dickriders’ is just as toxic as the Linus-message. Do what you want, but you are not an inch better than Linus.

But yes, the mail is toxic and unacceptable.

Skates, (edited )

This has some real “don’t be intolerant towards the intolerant” energy.

Yes, sometimes insults are justified. No, when an employee/volunteer helper doesn’t share your view is not one of those times. Yes, when you’re confronted with a toxic fuck and those defending his toxic behavior is one of those times.

jose1324,

Exactly.

SuddenDownpour,

There’s a hell of a difference between calling random commenters “dickriders” and having your boss, whom you have a very unequal relationship with, berate you like this.

SpaceCadet,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

What a toxic ass message

dickriders

Oh the irony…

jose1324,

You’re exactly proving my point

whyNotSquirrel,
@whyNotSquirrel@sh.itjust.works avatar

how does he?

jose1324,

He is the dickrider I’m talking about. Being contrarian for their beloved Linus.

Me saying one derisive word on an online forum is not exactly the same as a business environment where your for the lack of a better word boss is publicly cussing you out and humiliating you. There are a million other ways to get the point across without being an ass about it.

psud,

What does one’s practice of riding dicks have to do with anything?

glasgitarrewelt,

If only there was a way for you to get your point accross, without insulting others.

ieatpillowtags,

It only proves your hypocrisy as you’re being toxic yourself.

interceder270,

Prolly cause your boss doesn’t have half the responsibilities Linus did or had to deal with as many retards.

jose1324,

Weak ass excuse

caseyweederman, (edited )

So glad he got therapy (after this post or very probably because of it).
That said, fuck Nvidia.

jose1324,

He did? Couldn’t tell based off of this message

naevaTheRat,

you should always check the date of anything you see online before forming any thoughts about it.

emly_sh_,
@emly_sh_@sh.itjust.works avatar

This is from 2012

sorrybookbroke, (edited )

Well, he isn’t anyone’s boss here. I agree, and so would linus nowadays, that this is toxic and should be avoided, but the anger I fully understand.

Attempting to shift blame away from yourself after making a change which breaks a large portion of user space is cause for termination at any company I’ve worked at. It’s cowardice. This action goes against one of the most important, core philosophies, of the kernal. Do not break userspace. Also, this person should know better. They are not some odd newbie who may not grasp the ideas yet.

In a world where termination is not an option harsh criticism is required. This though, I agree, was anger driven unprofessionalism

Maalus,

There is a way to say all of that and not be a dick about it. Angry responses are seldom needed.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

He did it seldomly

SpaceCadet,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

I think there may also be a cultural angle here. Anglo-Saxon culture really places a much higher emphasis on “not causing offense”, whereas other cultures place a higher emphasis on speaking truthfully, even if harshly.

So Linus, who grew up in Finland, may have thought of his message as harsh but fair, whereas to native English speakers it comes across as incredibly rude.

areyouevenreal,

It doesn’t come across as particularly rude given what the offense here is. Someone blamed other projects for their mistake after getting called out. That deserves harsh criticism.

I think you are talking about American ideals. Not ideals in the English speaking world. Nothing here is remotely toxic by British standards. Swearing isn’t a big deal here, people regularly call each other swear words as a sign of affection. If someone does something stupid you can say they are acting like an idiot and hopefully they will listen. If you didn’t they might not think you are serious.

sharkfucker420, (edited ) to lemmyshitpost in it's a puzzling one i'll tell you hwat
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m going to be real with you bro. I’ve come across posts and comments from you before and without reading anything you’ve said here I can guarantee it’s because you had nonsense or uninformed takes on something a mod cared a lot about. Probably global affairs or communism.

SaakoPaahtaa,

The only uninformed takes I read on this site on communism come from communists themselves.

GrayBackgroundMusic,

No comment on the topic, just your name made me chuckle.

empireOfLove, (edited )

I should be allowed to post my nonsense and uninformed takes however I please and get ridiculed by the community for it, not outright quiet-banned by mods just because they didn’t like me. I’m a big boy, I can take the heat.

sharkfucker420,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

You sound like the type of person who goes to concert just to tell people the band isn’t good

mlg, to linuxmemes in Linus does not fuck around
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

I feel like people are overlooking the fact that this is typical early internet behavior lol.

I get that its the linux kernel mailing list, but I’m pretty sure Linus was way more wild online than in person because that’s how public internet forums and IRC used to be like.

Stallman has also said some equally braindead stuff lol.

aniki, to privacyguides in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!

andOTP is opensource, backs up locally, remotely, encrypted, or unencrypted. has no back doors, and will work with any DFA i can chuck at it.

its an archived project but still works fine in modern android

github.com/andOTP/andOTP

vox,
@vox@sopuli.xyz avatar

why not 2fas

frogmint,

Why not Aegis?

OfficerBribe,

Are there well known TOTP apps with backdoors?

aniki, (edited )

Anything closed source could have backdoors. Trust no one.

Why does MS Authenticator need GPS permissions?

play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=com.azur…

OfficerBribe,

As per their FAQ:

Permission to access your location

Q: I got a prompt asking me to grant permission for the app to access my location. Why am I seeing this?

A: You will see a prompt from the Authenticator app asking for access to your location if your IT admin has created a policy requiring you to share your GPS location before you are allowed to access specific resources. You’ll need to share your location once every hour to ensure you are still within a country where you are allowed to access the resource.

aniki, (edited )

And? I don’t give a shit what the admins of my network want. It’s DFA – they don’t deserve to know that. Ergo, I don’t use the MS app. They can kiss my ass and fire me if they don’t trust where I am.

OfficerBribe,

It’s a security / compliance policy. There is a very high chance your company has not even enabled it, have not seen anyone using it.

As I see it, you would and could use it only if you force MS Authenticator notification as the only MFA method and it is important in which country MFA prompt originates. Usually it is IP based block / whitelist which checks IP from which login originates which seems like a much more useful info, then you can also allow any MFA method.

You can always deny permissions to apps.

aniki,

You’re not convincing me.

It’s rather sick to an app that’s open source

OfficerBribe,

Your question was why GPS permission is needed, you should now know why.

I am using MS Authenticator and Aegis. Using MS authenticator only for work accounts that have been setup for number matching feature, it is pretty nice to simply enter 2 digits in app than entering 6 digits in client itself any time you need to approve MFA.

Everything else that supports standard TOTP whether work related or personal is on Aegis - it is a much better TOTP app.

aniki,

i dont care

ReversalHatchery,

That depends. More of the popular ones don’t encrypt the secret keys, they can just be read out with root access or even with the use of ADB (the pull command), not even speaking about reading the memory contents while booted to a recovery.
Some even uploads the keys to a cloud service for convenience, and they consider it a feature.

OfficerBribe,

Sounds more like a bad design than purposefully left backdoors. Very few devices are rooted and usually you cannot get root without fully wiping your device in process. As for cloud upload, that indeed is convenient for most regular users. I prefer encrypted offline backup like Aegis does, but you need to think about regular folk if they would loose or wipe their device.

ReversalHatchery,

It’s not bad design, it’s definitely intentional, however I agree that it’s probably not for having backdoors, but for convenience. Average people forget their passwords all the time, and with encryption that level of carelessness is fatal to your data if they have not saved it somewhere, which they probably didn’t do.

Very few devices are rooted and usually you cannot get root without fully wiping your device in process.

I’m pretty sure the system is not flawless. Probably it’s harder to find an exploit in the OS than it was years ago, but I would be surprised if it would be really rare. Also, I think a considerable amount of people use the cheapest phones of no name brands (even if not in your country), or even just tablets that haven’t received updates for years and are slow but “good for use at home”. I have one at home that I rarely use. Bootloader cannot be unlocked, but there’s a couple of exploits available for one off commands and such.

XioR112, (edited )
@XioR112@lemmy.world avatar

Here is active fork.
github.com/helloworld1/FreeOTPPlus

lemann,

This is what I use. Also supports exporting/importing data to and from Gnome Authenticator so you have 2FA on your computer too 👍

aniki,

Sick! I didn’t think to look at the forks but that’s amazing.

agent_flounder, to askelectronics in Can someone help me identify this potentiometer from a third party Xbox controller?
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

How many pins does it have in the circuit board?

Someone said it might be an encoder but I see “103” on it which is used on potentiometers to indicate 10k ohm (10 x 10^3)

pepsison52895, (edited )

It has 3 pins, and I found that it’s a linear (B), 10k ohm (130, as you said), potentiometer. I found similar ones, but the 9 and 5 at the top concern me. The others that I found have a 60 and a 6 there instead.

agent_flounder,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

Linear checks out for this kind of application.

Potentiometers are pretty basic things. About the only thing I can think of that would be specified electrically is value (10k), wattage rating (but I doubt much current is sent through these in this application), linear/logarithmic taper, tolerance (often 5%, or 10%) and maybe the type of contact/track or something (probably doesn’t matter).

Those numbers could be manufactured date or lot codes or similar.

How does the thumb “wheel” attach? Or is it built in? I can’t tell from the single pic.

Other things to consider are the pin spacing and physical dimensions.

glibg10b, to askelectronics in Can someone help me identify this potentiometer from a third party Xbox controller?

Found that the resistance of this potentiometer doesn’t change when it’s moved

Are sure you’re measuring across the correct terminals? The resistance between the two terminals of the resistive portion is constant. I would expect the resistance of a failed pot to either be zero or infinite

lemming741,

It might not even be a potentiometer, more likely an encoder

pepsison52895,

There’s a test pad on the PCB labeled “LT” (left trigger). I used that and compared it’s resistance to ground to that of the right trigger’s test pad. I got about 6-10k ohms on the working one (right trigger), and 3.9-4.4 on this one.

hswolf, to privacyguides in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!
@hswolf@lemmy.world avatar

If you get Bitwarden pro (really cheap), you can save an OTP link together with the site credentials, it’s really good for keeping everything in one place

SaltyIceteaMaker,
@SaltyIceteaMaker@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

Proton pass can also do this

PracticalParrot,

I do this. I want to point out it is absolutely TERRIBLE for security. It’s turning 2 factor back into 1 factor authentication.

goodhunter,

Consider your threat model. You could use a yubikey for Bitwarden log in.

kniescherz,

I would argue its more like a 1.5 factor. Not secure when your bitwarden gets compromised. But more security for stolen, leaked, phised passwords.

I currently have 60 OTPs in Bitwarden, I probably would not have activated 2FA on so many sites without BW.

IdleSheep, (edited )
@IdleSheep@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

This isn’t really a good idea because then you’re putting all your eggs in one basket. The whole point of 2FA is that the second factor is in a separate location so if your first factor (password) gets compromised the second one (OTP code) still protects your account. If both factors are in one place you’re back to a single point of failure instead of 2, losing a key benefit of 2FA.

If you’re gonna do this, at the very least have 2FA with a security key on your bitwarden vault.

kniescherz,

You lose security, sure. But you are gaining so much more ease of use. Bitwarden autofills your credentials and puts your token into your clipboard. Also it syncs your tokens to all devices. Effectifly this makes a site as easy to login as a site without 2fa.

The alternative is on desktop always get your smartphone, open some app type a token or on the phone to switch to multiple apps to get your credentials. Not fun imho.

I currently activated 2fa on over 60 sites, I doubt I would use it as much without BW.

For me, the key benefit of 2Fa is getting more security against leaked, stolen, phished passwords, and that still holds up.

IdleSheep, (edited )
@IdleSheep@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The alternative is on desktop always get your smartphone, open some app type a token or on the phone to switch to multiple apps to get your credentials. Not fun imho.

There are desktop apps for OTP, you don’t need a phone. And since you only need to setup an OTP secret once, doing it for your phone and pc isn’t that big of a deal.

I have my OTP secrets in 3 places, 2 yubikeys and my phone’s authenticator app, with the former meant for my PC.

For me, the key benefit of 2Fa is getting more security against leaked, stolen, phished passwords, and that still holds up.

If your vault doesn’t have 2FA too this doesn’t hold up though. Means you’re trusting a single service that can get hacked with all your secrets. Sure, your other accounts are more protected against leaks and stuff, but if your password vault isn’t, you didn’t really change much, just pointed the hackers to one single place.

Yes I know hacking a password vault isn’t some walk in the park and rarely happens, but the point is any leaks from it would be 10 times more catastrophic for you if all your OTP secrets are also stored in it. I’ll spare myself from that nightmare with the small inconvenience that is a separate, offline OTP app.

kniescherz,

Good points!

I got the vault protected via yubikey of course ;)

derpgon,

If you get Vaultwarden, absolutely free, you don’t have to pay and have full control over your data. It’s a win-win!

phase, to privacy in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!
@phase@lemmy.8th.world avatar

Yubikey on a phone?

SomeBoyo,

Yes, it’s relatively convenient with NFC.

Taps4366,
@Taps4366@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yep. Just download the Yubico Authenticator app. Your OTPs wont show up unless you tap your physical Yubikey to your phone’s NFC chip.

Only downside is, the Yubico Authenticator only allows 32 accounts. So i have my most important accounts on there.

picnicolas, to privacy in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!

Any iOS alternatives? Couldn’t find either of these in the App Store.

Lodra,
@Lodra@programming.dev avatar

Bitwarden has been working well for me on iOS. It’s a paid feature though. $10 a year I think

max,

+1, well worth the 10 bucks.

Zekenator_von,
@Zekenator_von@lemmy.ml avatar

Bitwarden has a 2fa function?i didn’t know it. But I don’t fully trust online apps for storing passwords though. A server can always be exploited

Lodra,
@Lodra@programming.dev avatar

Bitwarden uses end to end encryption. This severely reduces the risk their infra is attacked. The encryption keys exist on your devices only so it’s impossible to read the server side data.

The only real question is how much you trust Bitwarden as a company. Are they completely lying about E2EE to customers and auditors? If not, then Bitwarden is a good choice.

Lodra,
@Lodra@programming.dev avatar

Oh and ya, it’s has a one time passcode function. Works great! It will even autofill into OTP fields… sometimes 🙂

nutbutter, to privacyguides in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!

In India, they force us to install proprietary apps, which are probably spying on us.

Star,

They don’t, though? Who’s forcing you to install a proprietary 2FA app in India. Unless you’re saying in general.

nutbutter,

My bank, for example, does not let us use any 2FA app we want. They have their own separate app, made for handling 2FA for that specific bank only.

And in general too, yes. Like Arogya Setu. The app we had to install to prove our vaccination status.

noodlejetski, to privacyguides in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!

that’s a refreshing change from the regular Google Authenticator and Authy mentions.

totallynotarobot,

What’s wrong with Authy?

vaselined,

Apparently it is hard to export out of authy

Midnight1938,

Microsoft authenticator has joined the chat

lud, (edited )

Here is their justification:

In order to maintain security for our users, the Authy application does not allow importing or exporting 2FA account tokens.

Users who want to import or export their tokens can follow this process:

  1. Login to the desired online account with your existing 2FA token.
  1. Disable 2FA in the app’s site.
  2. Re-enable 2FA again in the app’s site.
  3. Scan the QR code, optionally write the Authentication Key, this time on the desired 2FA App.

…authy.com/…/1260805179070-Export-or-Import-Token…

Evotech,

Nothing

TheInsane42, (edited ) to privacyguides in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!
@TheInsane42@lemmy.world avatar

According to Wikipedia it’s based on google authenticator. Is it known how much google code is still in there?

LWD, (edited )

deleted_by_author

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  • badgrandpa,
    @badgrandpa@lemmy.world avatar

    only what I don’t like in FreeOTP is lack of passcode or biometrics

    lemann,

    I use FreeOTP+ and it requires biometrics to open

    floridaman, (edited ) to privacyguides in BVG out here recommending the best 2FA Apps!

    I self host Bitwarden (Vaultwarden) so I just use the built-in TOTP authenticator in the Bitwarden app. It’s nice to have it all in one place + having auto copy and paste when I log in. And because I self host, it’s all backed up securely and with (as far as I know) no real backdoors.

    ETA: just realized what community this is in. people that replied to me I’m sorry lmao, I’m not a nut about this kinda stuff and I’m by no means recommending this just like using it this way for convenience factor and to keep the likes of google out of my password.

    Undertaker, (edited )

    Yeah it compromises the idea of a second factor. Bitwarden is the worst choice. It’s only one thing: comfortable

    floridaman,

    Fair, although I’ve said in a comment on this account somewhere else, I self host more for convenience sake than anything. I just like having my own password manager, sure it’s not as secure to use it for MFA but it’s better than giving my passwords to Google, LastPass, etc. and then using eg Google Authenticator. Self hosting is more a corporate distrust thing than a privacy thing for me

    Winter8593,

    No, please do not do this. Two factor authentication should be just that: two separate factors of authenticating yourself. Having them combined in one is the same as one factor.

    floridaman,

    Said in the reply to the other comment here, but I don’t really self host for security/privacy sake. And in addition to that comment I’d also like to say that I do use a YubiKey when possible for MFA. I’m not a security nut enough to care about TOTP (which kinda sucks anyway) all too much but for important things I do use physical MFA.

    jard, (edited )
    @jard@sopuli.xyz avatar

    deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • Dislodge3233,

    I have a really long password on Bitwarden like 30+. I use OnlyKey to store this password on a hardware device.

    You mentioned phones. My problem with using another 2FA app is that it’s still on my phone.

    ideonella,

    I do the same thing. And Bitwarden’s 2FA is off my phone. In a complicated world, it’s reasonable to keep 1 password + 2FA as secure as possible. I simply can’t handle the hassle of pulling out my phone for every 2FA login, but still value the protection 2FA + randomly generated passwords provide.

    hemko, to linuxmemes in Linus does not fuck around

    Not going to touch the general toxicity as it’s something Linus has already apologized and worked through with professional help, but I love the attitude when it comes to responsibility.
    Far too often it’s easier to blame someone else for error.

    “No this is our problem, and I’m ashamed you’re trying to blame someone else for it” is respectable take

    corsicanguppy,

    Tough love isn’t toxicity, even if Linus had to grovel a bit to divert the Karens elsewhere.

    OKRainbowKid,

    Shut the fuck up.

    winky88,

    Stop breaking user space

    anarchy79,
    @anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

    Getting angry = tOxiCK i cry evertem

    BluesF,

    Everyone gets angry, but this is not a constructive way to communicate what someone else needs to do. You can express all of this without belittling and swearing at someone. Being angry is fine, taking it out on other people is rude and unnecessary.

    uis, (edited )
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fb3e4be1-5160-469a-a9e4-9cb6e62de87f.jpeg

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/66d687ea-5b26-4e01-96d4-c0f9287c0b20.jpeg

    How to communicate with someone who in conversation about KDE randomly blames pulseaudio and opensuse?

    0x4E4F, (edited )

    He basically has one rule and one rule only… we don’t break user space… IMO, if you break that one rule, I believe he has the right to be angry. It’s not constructive, but I wouldn’t hold it against him.

    BluesF,

    If he was my boss and he treated me like this I would absolutely hold it against him! Honestly I don’t care how much an employee fucks up, there is no excuse for abusing them.

    BestBouclettes,

    Even more so because Torvalds is not his boss and the guy is a volunteer that is not being paid for his contribution.
    I’m glad Torvalds was the bigger man and got help for his temper.

    moomoomoo309,
    @moomoomoo309@programming.dev avatar

    Red Hat email, not a volunteer.

    uis, (edited )
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar
    0x4E4F, (edited )

    Yeah, I completely agree, the guy’s a duche, blaiming others for his mistake (assumption, that leads to a shitty PR, which is a mistake).

    As I said, if I did that, I would gladly take the heat from Linus. Own up to your mistake. Yes, you do deserve to be called names. You’re a maintainer for the most wide spread kernel in the world. “But I don’t get paid…”. You can quit at any time pal, no one is forcing you to do it.

    uis, (edited )
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    Own up to your mistake.

    To be fair he did it after Linus’ speech.

    I posted 3 screenshots in comments here.

    lemmy.world/comment/5872379

    0x4E4F,

    OK, yeah, that’s fair 🤝.

    anarchy79,
    @anarchy79@lemmy.world avatar

    The virgin IT tech tears in here are real.

    arc,

    His style of being direct, having a high quality threshold and calling out bullshit immediately and bluntly is why the Linux kernel went from a university project to powering everything from lightbulbs to super computers. I think it kind of ridiculous that this demonstrably effective style got framed as “toxic” just because he hurt a few people’s fee-fees.

    derpgon,

    It’s easier to label other people toxic rather than finding flaws in themselves. More people will agree with someone being toxic, because deflection as a tactic got so ingrained in people that they don’t know better.

    arc,

    Exactly. It might not be good to be on the receiving end, but the chain of discussion that went before these rants should have given people the clue they needed to stop while they were ahead.

    BestBouclettes,

    Torvalds got professional help for that. Even he acknowledged that it was a problem.

    Floey,

    Demonstrably effective

    Where’s the logic in looking at something successful and picking a singular thing to be responsible? What seems more likely is you are looking for an idea you are attached to that exists adjacent to something successful. It’s like a Mormon looking for successful Mormon CEOs to then claim the company’s success is due to the Mormon work ethic. It’s like how in Whiplash the Charlie Parker story is venerated and seen as explanatory by the characters.

    arc,

    The logic is simple. This is s his style and it demonstrably worked. I’m sure you could point to someone else’s style that also works in another context but that’s irrelevant.

    Claidheamh,

    But did it work because of the style or in spite of it? No reason to believe it wouldn’t be even more successful if he had been less abrasive like he is now.

    arc,

    Because of it, quite obviously.

    Claidheamh,

    How is that obvious? Especially because it’s become even more successful after he’s mellowed out?

    dk841143,

    “Especially because it’s become even more successful after he’s mellowed out?”

    You state that as if its also “obvious”. How is this a fact? How is it obvious? Is it more successful because of his mellowing or irrespective of it? On its face, seems to me we cant nod our head in agreement to your sudden assertion any more than arc’s assertion that Linus’ initial style worked.

    You seem to want arc to provide some sort of metric or proof to back up his assertion. Well, where is yours? Where’s your metric/data?

    Claidheamh, (edited )

    My point is exactly that. It’s not obvious, and as such you can’t attribute the success of Linux to his behaviour. Like the OP said, there’s no logic in looking at something successful and picking a singular thing to be responsible.

    dk841143,

    Already understood your point. Where in my post is it clear that l didn’t? Its hinted and referenced that I understood as I use variations of your own phrases and challenge you using the same point on, Specifically, this quote:

    “Especially because it’s become even more successful after he’s mellowed out?”

    What exactly is the utility of the above quote of yours then? Cause its structured as something you assert as a fact that’s used to bolster your initial point to arc.

    The bolster being something like:

    If its so obvious that Linus’ original style was so “demonstrably effective” as to be the reason for the massive success of Linux then how can you (arc) explain the fact that it has especially become even more successful after he’s mellowed out?

    but like, has it? Has it become even more successful after he’s mellowed out? Your bolster kinda hinges on that fact to be true. Cause if we were to somehow find your assertion to be untrue and the project to be worse off by X degree after he mellowed out then that could more bolster arc’s assertions.

    JigglySackles,

    I think too many people get upset about swearing. It brings a strong emphasis, it’s not disrespect imo. Knowing how Linus is, I’d take that response in stride. I appreciate his direct approach especially to the brazen arrogance of someone too full of themselves to see themselves as wrong. It wouldn’t be a great way to start a conversation, but as an ender it’s terribly effective. He called a fucking idiot a fucking idiot. That shouldn’t be toxic. Not everything that hurts someone’s tender feels is toxic. The intent should be taken into consideration.

    Kusimulkku,

    Hell yeah. But it’s not considered good anymore, everyone has to be very nice and whatnot. Too bad imo but I guess less hurt feelings.

    Diplomjodler,

    You can be direct and call out bullshit without swearing and name calling. While the content of this sounds reasonable, the tone definitely isn’t. If someone talked to me like that I’d tell them to fuck right off.

    arc,

    Yes you could but he didn’t and clearly his style was self evidently effective. And I’d add that if you’ve ever read the LKML archives, that these rants were rare and usually preceded by long chains of discussion before it reached that point.

    Pelicanen,

    Doesn’t make it right. Michael Jackson’s dad abused his kids and they became world famous artists, doesn’t mean abusing your kids is acceptable or should be seen as such.

    arc,

    This is a nonsensical comparison

    Claidheamh,

    It’s not a comparison, it’s an analogy. Important distinction.

    arc,

    It’s a rotten analogy. Comparing Linus having a go at some volunteers is not analogous, or comparable to a father abusing kids.

    Claidheamh,

    The analogy is that the end result doesn’t justify the behaviour from the person in power. It’s apt.

    Pyroglyph,
    @Pyroglyph@lemmy.world avatar

    Except it’s not a distinction at all.

    analogy (n.) - a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

    Claidheamh,

    Of course it is. A square is also a rectangle but it’s still an important distinction.

    deweydecibel, (edited )

    Yes you could but he didn’t and clearly his style was self evidently effective.

    Depends on how you define “effective”. Because by his own admission, it gets shit done, but also alienates people in the project and turns off others from joining it.

    So yeah, you’ll get the update pushed, and it’ll work, but down the line you find yourself struggling to keep up without the help of people that don’t want to work with you.

    Linus’ mistake is a classic one: really self-sufficient tech person doing fantastic work with a team but not appreciating that there’s a whole social layer to it that is every bit as important as the standards and procedures at keeping everything working.

    arc,

    I define effective by the fact it was self evidently effective. No need to split hairs or dissemble here. Linux is objectively, indisputably the most important piece of code in the world. Everything else, such as a the context free boo hoo about some times when he has had a go at people is just noise.

    Catoblepas,

    Seems like the man himself disagrees with you, since he saw it as a big enough problem to get professional help and make long lasting changes. 🤷‍♂️

    dk841143,

    Or he’s just playing the game within the current “social layers” that have attached to or are inherit to the project to placate those who require placating. Not like pubic figures haven’t had to blow sunshine up asses to shut the the “whiners” up before. And if so, maybe those lasting changes are trivial because it was never a major habit to begin with and rare. Its was just an approach to get the result. But you’ve to show the public you care (even if you don’t) and talk about how you worked real hard and put in the work. (Even if the work was trivial)

    Koordinator_O,
    @Koordinator_O@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure you can. But the evidence i see in my immediate vicinity is that informations go in through one ear and straight out through the other without holding on to anything if presented in in a none swearing or name calling manner. It hurts but it works.

    Diplomjodler,

    I’m glad I don’t live in your immediate vicinity.

    uis,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    I went to LKML for context, so I return with context.

    When 3.8-rc1 was released, “Rafael J. Wysocki” reported 100% CPU usage by knotify4(part of KDE) on OpenSUSE Thubleweed with pulseaudio as audio server.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fb3e4be1-5160-469a-a9e4-9cb6e62de87f.jpeg

    At which Mauro Carvalho Chehab replies starting with blaming pulseaudio(why? Srsly, why? I don’t like it, but this is just troll behaviour) and saying pulseaudio(which is NOT knotify4) should not try to use V4L2.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/66d687ea-5b26-4e01-96d4-c0f9287c0b20.jpeg

    This shitty behaviour ignites Linus’ back and he replies with mentioned in post message.

    SRo,

    Oh noes he used bad wordsies? My fee-fees!

    interceder270,

    I totally agree. I have mad respect for Linus for the work he’s done and the immense amount of retardation he’s had to sift and fight his way through.

    I have very little respect for the people critiquing his behavior while contributing nothing of value themselves.

    gohixo9650,

    I agree on the first part. However this is from 2012 and in the meantime Linus himself realized and admitted that he was not proud of behaving like that and took real measures and seeked help in order to improve himself.

    caseyweederman,

    Way to infantalize the people calling him out while excusing his childish tantrums.

    kilinrax,

    Way to infantalize … his childish tantrums.

    Come on dude. Either there’s a standard here or there isn’t.

    caseyweederman,

    Uh yeah. Childish behavior is childish. Holding people to a higher standard is not.

    uis,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fb3e4be1-5160-469a-a9e4-9cb6e62de87f.jpeg

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/66d687ea-5b26-4e01-96d4-c0f9287c0b20.jpeg

    Randomly blaming pulseaudio when talking about 100% CPU usage by KDE. I don’t like pulseaudio, but this is childish indeed.

    arc,

    There is a difference between a rant and a tantrum. If you read the post, you could see very clearly he makes a point very forcefully.

    caseyweederman,

    Okay. How about: don’t lash out at people when you’re mad.

    Fedizen, (edited ) to linuxmemes in Linus does not fuck around

    I think whoever recieved this would be completely fine to report Linus to HR or something. The fact somebody thought to circulate it is suggestive that it crossed a line. I do appreciate he does seem to really care about the kernel. He could maybe tone down the hysterics a little.

    I think if there’s a lesson here its “Never hit send while you’re angry” always wait until your hormones to subside before sending an email because emails are records and people don’t have good judgement while angry, so an email sent in anger is just a record of your poor judgement.

    mightyfoolish,

    I don’t think HR can deal with a company owner. What could they do?

    moomoomoo309,
    @moomoomoo309@programming.dev avatar

    Does the Linux Foundation even have HR? Even if they did, does an employee of a separate company even have the ability to make a complaint about Linus with them?

    laurelraven,

    For the first part, no clue, but for the second, absolutely

    Just because you work for someone else doesn’t give them the right to treat you badly and that sort of behavior can and should be reported to a person’s employer.

    prosp3kt,

    I respectfully disagree with you. Sometimes you get blamed by other people mistakes. I don’t think this message is a big deal TBH.

    rockhandle,
    @rockhandle@lemm.ee avatar

    Its not really a big deal, but there could’ve been a nicer way of getting the point across

    raspberriesareyummy,

    I think whoever recieved this would be completely fine to report Linus to HR or something.

    As unnecessary as the tone was, if your first reaction to such a form of address is to run to HR, you’re contributing to a toxic workplace. The first and foremost way to address etiquette problems (I am not including criminal behavior in this) is to talk directly to the person who offended you. Everyone has a bad day once in a while, and some people may even shout. If the first reaction is to get them into legal trouble with the employer, most people will rightfully avoid you like you just stepped into dogshit.

    If this kind of behavior - despite having addressed it face to face - keeps occurring, that’s a different issue, then HR may be necessary.

    adrian783,

    this is literally abuse. if you got this you’re already in a toxic workplace.

    raspberriesareyummy,

    An individual misbehaving does not constitute a toxic workplace. If you can’t tell people that you think their tone is inappropriate, then take it to your manager, but going straight to HR is about the dumbest way to deal with this. Some people don’t even realize they overstepped but might be able to empathize once informed.

    Nalivai,

    Oh yeah, when your boss has anger issues and curses you in email, you really want to politely talk to him and ask him to stop. That will show them that you’re a little spineless sucker and can be shat on indefinitely.

    raspberriesareyummy,

    Yes, even to your boss you can say that you feel something could have been communicated in a more friendly way. “Anger issues” implies the repeated occurrence for which I already stated before that is a different situation.

    abraxas,

    The term is “hostile work environment”. HR doesn’t just respond because of strict liability. Just one occurance of something like this can lead to an otherwise solid worker to spiral from discomfort of the situation, both feeling like a prisoner at their job and producing far less value for their employers.

    The latter is why HR cares, but the former is why it’s OKay to go straight to HR. If HR is well-trained, things like this shouldn’t escalate just because you went to HR. They should be able to diffuse it productively.

    raspberriesareyummy,

    You have obviously never dealt with a real-world scenario. Going straight to HR for someone being verbally(!) out of line, without even using insults, means you are the bigger problem.

    abraxas, (edited )

    I love how everyone online is psychic.

    Actually, I’ve watched two GREAT workers and good people end up losing their jobs because a easily resolved situation turned toxic. The person who felt uncomfortable tried to take care of it 1-on-1 but had too passive aggressive a nature to really be clear when she confronted the guy.

    So 6 months or a year later, she was on the verge of quitting and went to HR. He was terminated because it had gone too far. She left soon after because she still wasn’t comfortable at work after the cause of that ended.

    …look. I “obviously never dealt” with anything because nobody is allowed differing opinions here, but I have 20+ years experience at businesses where the existence or lack of good HR has been a deciding factor of the work-culture and comfort level of team members. I work 1-on-1 with my company’s Directors of HR on a regular basis to make sure my team is happy and because I am involved with other teams at my job who have their own interpersonal conflicts. One of HR’s responsibilities in a good company is to involve themselves in interpersonal conflicts BEFORE decisive action has to be taken.

    The problem is that face-to-face confrontations without a mediator don’t always end well. And I would rather not have HR decide “we have to fire our Rockstar senior dev or this random guy”. But if you address it earlier, HR deals with it earlier (yes, because the paper trail m eans HR can’t just fire “this random guy” later over the Rockstar senior dev). It’s win-win for all parties INCLUDING the Linus Torvalds in this explanation.

    But I’ve “obviously never dealt with a real-world scenario” and my experience doesn’t count. So you can ignore everything I said.

    raspberriesareyummy, (edited )

    You are under the very relevant misassumption that HR is less likely to be handling a situation inappropriately than two people speaking with each other directly. I stand by my original comment. A simple verbal overstep, on the first occurrence, should definitely be addressed without involving HR

    Fedizen,

    Hard disagree. This letter is what happens when direct communications have failed.

    Realistically, somebody near Linus probably told him to chill out and that he’s damaging his own reputation and his project’s by sending out this temper tantrum bullshit. In no world would the target of this letter be the person who successfully sits him down and lectures him on not being an asshole.

    But honestly if he had a habit of sending out this kind of stuff it would be a liability/legal problem.

    raspberriesareyummy,

    letter? latter? Linus? what are you even on about. I was speaking generally about such a situation, not this incident in particular.

    Chobbes,

    I’m pretty sure this is on a public mailing list.

    poplargrove,

    They have HR?

    thought to circulate it

    The kernel mailing list is public. Assuming I didnt misunderstand what you meant here.

    Fedizen, (edited )

    That’s even more fucked up tbh. The public shaming aspect sounds like it would fuck up people.

    That’s the kind of behavior that can destroy communities, its surprising if this kind of garbage was tolerated on a public mailing list.

    linuxdweeb,

    This is far from the first (or last) time he wrote something like this. This was just a regular thing in the kernel world for a long time (until Linus matured a little).

    Whether or not it was a good thing is up for debate I think. Yeah, it’s very rude and unprofessional (and discourages new contributors who don’t want to risk getting chewed out), but considering the importance of the Linux kernel, it’s good to know the lead maintainer is doing too much of the right thing than not enough (i.e. being lax with bad code in order to be respectful). I’m fine knowing that a few tech workers got their egos smashed if it gives me confidence that the code powering civilization is high quality.

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