While there surely is reason to criticize Israel on many levels I don’t understand what people like you expect what Israel or any other state would do if there was a group (Hamas, which is designated as terrorist by many Democratic countries) raiding it’s territory and kills and kidnaps a number of it’s citizen.
just to put in relation 1.400/10.000.000 Israelis would equal 46.000 USA citizen (333.000.000 inhabitants). when applying this scale this would be much worse than 9/11.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
Anyway, the whole middle east is fucked up and I wish that they could finally all live in peace and ditch their religious fanaticism so the few can not exploit the religious for their fascist cause whether it be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.
Israel lost 0.014% of its population to the Hamas attack. Gaza has lost about 0.52% of its population to Israel’s rampage and that over 40% of those deaths are children. How is that comparable at all?
I appreciate your attempt to bring rationality and reason to the discussion, but you’re wasting your time on this shithole.
yeah, I realized this half way through typing but wanted to finish this anyway.
And yeah, asking for independent verification the way you did absolutely implies denial. I should have realized that from your instance that you’re from a country that literally defines anti-Zionism as antisemitism.
Wow. Now the instance I am coming is the point of debate. Honestly, you are not interested in any honest discussion after all. I don’t have any political agenda with me like you obviously do.
All I do is wish for war and terrorism to end and this needs democratic processes and independent press after all. This is my point.
Here’s one, sorta, that doesn’t include where they checked a Palestinian employees family bit, but it’s the middle of the night and I’m trying to go back to sleep. I’ll find it in the morning.
It also doesn’t help that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians either. For example when they shoot rockets and place the rocket launcher next to a hospital or school, they know it’s going to be hit by Israel at some point.
I get the reasons for both parties, but fighting isn’t going to resolve this, they have both tried for wat too long. Divide the country and get all the other nations to recognize both countries is the only thing that could work (I believe).
I think it’s fair to criticize Israeli tactics and overall strategy, but most of the blanket condemnation you see on Lemmy is indicative of pure moral confusion and/or an unfamiliarity with historical and contemporary facts. That the outrage is so selective --it’s never applied to other similar and even unprovoked civilian massacres-- tells us everything we need to know about how well-thought-out it is.
But what exactly would that be? Keep in mind that there is no doubt on that Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist organization.
So what should Israel have answered to hundreds of it’s citizen bring taken hostage? Again I do not say that Israel is not to be criticized for decisions and especially actions in the past where they have deported Palestinians. Even if this is the root cause of the rise of the terrorist group. This is not point of the current debate.
What differentiates Hamas from the Israel government that causes you to describe it as a terrorist organization and the Israel government as not?
The definition is killing civilians to cause political change.
Israel, by many governmental officials descriptions, is trying to cause maximum damage to Gaza in retaliation, including the deaths of a civilian population. Most of whom, notably were too young to vote for Hamas.
Israel has repeatedly bombed hospitals run by MSF, schools, and ambulances. They always claim Hamas was there, and yet, the MSF doctors state they weren’t. The schools weren’t likely housing Hamas, and when journalists check the ambulances, find no weapons or military uniforms.
Let me ask you this: what could Israel do that you wouldn’t think is justified?
Please, answer that. I’d be willing to bet I could find an example. And if there is nothing, then I know you’re an extremist that is okay with genocide.
Jesus Christ, really? Bombing a Hospital is NEVER a good idea and in multiple comments I do explicitly state that Israel IS to be criticized, which, you know, is the opposite of justifying. Again I do not justify them bombing hospitals and killing civilians, I said they should definitely take more action to prevent civilian casualties. I’ve seen the Videos where Palestinians are being harassed by Israelis which is to condemn. And AGAIN, I do not deny that this could be the root cause of the rise of Hamas. But this also does not justify killing Israeli civilians either (or many other civilians with international citizenship).
It’s all fucked up and I can barely make up an opinion about all this. And AGAIN, my point is simply to take EVERY piece of information with a grain of salt, but the thing is that Israel has information advantage right now as international press has more access and security on their side atm. This does not mean that press is 100% free there either as it was just very recently reported that German Journalists were still held up or even harassed by IDF Soldiers. But how can I atm know if this was a nervous soldier in fear of his security or a decision made from the top government? I genuinely do not know.
However, any discussion about this is a tightrope walk after all. I won’t bother any longer.
The Palestinians tried a peaceful protest in the march of return two years ago.
The IDF slaughtered them, intentionally targeting medics.
Bibi used coded language in a speech in Hebrew calling the Palestinians amaleks. God ordered the Jewish tribe, in the old testament, to slaughter the amaleks man, woman, child, and beast of burden.
CNN was allowed a journalist to embed with the IDF, but only if the IDF was allowed full editorial control. FULL control.
At this point, you not knowing this is likely you ‘just trying to ask questions’ in a bad faith effort to justify genocide, which you obliquely admit to in another comment. Israel is still not allowing food or water in.
So in other words if this killing helps rooting out Hamas then it is all justified. Because obviously the next generation of Palestinians will be thankful that their siblings, parents, grandparents where rooted out of their homes or slaughtered in the name of anti-terrorism action as collateral damage. Surely nobody growing up without prospects and has to deal with such hardships will wabt any revenge or justice for their sufferings. Surely this will not radicalize the middle east any further. In fact they should be grateful that they are honored to die in the name of Israëls justice.
I don’t want to justify, all I am looking for is a discussion. I could not provide a solution either and I do not support war. All I am saying is that I don’t know what to expect from a country to do.
I do not excuse killing of civilians or even genocide and personally think that Israel should take more care about civilians which is even in alignment with the statement of Mr. Blinken. Also they may rightfully be criticized in relation to blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza.
All I do say is that unbased information is hard to come by at this stage as the information sphere from inside Gaza is mostly controlled by Hamas. Israel surely is no unbiased source of news either, but international press has more access there. Again I do not neglect nor justify killing civilians and especially children. But still it should be distinguished between actual genocide which includes intentionally deporting and killing civilians and collateral damage, both of which are to condemn, as are the actions of Hamas relating to raiding and terrorizing Israel civilians and taking them hostage. This is no way of deescalation obviously either.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is you ‘both-siding’ genocide.
There is one proper response to genocide. Unconditional condemnation without qualifying. Anything else is standing idlely by.
Criticism while also saying ‘but Hamas did this’ is not unconditional condemnation.
Let me ask you this: do you think there is any behavior that can justify genocide?
You can take issue with the numbers and be as conspiratorial about them as you like, but that goalpost movement doesn’t do anything to support your point.
Your unwillingness to label the killing of thousands of children in either regard shows an apologism and an intellectual dishonesty that doesn’t bely any useful contribution to the discussion.
Faux impartiality and centrism is the kind of toxic behaviour that lets these atrocities go unchecked.
Huh? I don’t have a strong opinion on any of this and do not deny. I would prefer independent investigations on this by parties not involved in this conflict (or war or potential genocide whatever you want to call this).
More than half of the population, about 52%, were under the age of 18, making them children.
Indiscriminate bombing, which Israel is doing, will cause about half of those fatalities to be children.
Asking for independent journalistic verification in a war zone where Israel won’t let independent journalists in is the equivalent of denying. You know there is no verification meeting your impossible standards.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is you justifying it.
Let me guess: you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
No, I do not justify bombing civilian infrastructure. I do try to explain why civilian casualties are too high. While Hamas should not use civilians as human shields, Israel should not bomb them non the less and disregard civilian casualties. It’s both wrong.
you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
Hahaha never. Now fuck off with them Nazis.
Edit: To be clear and give my final statement. I am not politically active and do not have an agenda. I am not member of any political party, but I do actively vote and politically debate with friends. Currently i would consider myself mostly in line with the green party while having a negative view on both extremist left and right boundaries but I also dislike the major parties curruption riddled SPD (esp. Scholz), CDU and inhumane corporate and lobby party FDP. AfD and the other Nazi parties are the worst obviously.
Being reasonable and understanding things are complicated and nuanced isn’t going to happen on Lemmy.
The nutters here are going to sit on a Hamas propaganda source like Al Jazeera, knee-jerk to every article designed to drum up hatred and dumb down the situation, and go hop in bed with every anti-semite masquerading as the left that they can find. All the while pretending this conflict exists in a vacuum and lately even blaming the deaths on the 7th on Israel in their comments.
I appreciate your attempt to bring rationality and reason to the discussion, but you’re wasting your time on this shithole.
Israel doesn’t exist just because of or for Zionists. Or do you propose everyone who was born there but happens to not be a Palestinian should leave the country?
No, I advocate for them to demand a single Democratic state with Democratic rights for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. Since, you know, they’ve intentionally done everything possible to kill a two state solution.
Otherwise, they promote an apartheid vision for the region.
Also, it does exist solely because of Zionists. Where do you think it came from?
It exists to be a unsinkable US aircraft carrier parked at the crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe. It’s an ethnostate where non-jews are disenfranchised and nonwhite Jews are sterilized.
Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted in Palestine long before the European colony arrived.
What do I expect them to do? Not ‘mow the grass’ every couple of years. Not use soldiers to protect murderers as the ‘settlers’, sorry, thieves go in and steal more of west bank. Somewhere that has no hamas, by the by.
What do I expect them to do? Not commit genocide. That’s what I expect.
I also expect them not to be a white supremacist apartheid ethno state, but I know that one isn’t possible, just as I know that it isn’t possible to not expect them to be terrorists or commit the Nakba, or to socialize with the Irgun.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is literally justification.
Maybe try not justifying the murder of over 10,000 civilians if you don’t want toxicity.
Its definitely an apartheid state. Unlike South Africa the ruling ethnicity is the majority. They've been at war with the minority since it's inception since that meant physically displacing people who didn't want to leave. I don't believe peace was ever an option Israel honestly considered.
The only good guys in this conflict are the innocent uninvolved citizens on all sides. Aside from that, everyone involved, including those on the ground on the conflict, those in the situation rooms, and those both funding and manipulating the situation from outside are all the bad guys.
Anyone who tries to paint this as a simple moral conclusion, and not as one part in one of the most complicated and difficult geopolitical situations on the entire planet, is either an idiot or part of a propaganda campaign, knowingly or not. These trite oversimplifications are insultingly reductive to the situation, do nothing to help any of the actual potential victims, and only serve to foster both misinformed reductive thinking and harmful attitudes towards groups without the full context to reconcile these impressions.
There is an information war being waged by many forces on all sides of this conflict right now; be wary of anyone who encourages reductive thinking on complex issues when lives are on the line.
You’re 100% right, and your view aligns very closely with mine. It’s also very well worded; nicely done.
I’m extremely frustrated with the loss of innocent lives. I realize my meme is oversimplifying, but that is inherit to the format of memes themselves. In this case my meme serves to vent my frustrations with an appalling situation and to serve as a jumping off point for deeper conversations.
No matter the frothing at the mouth, anyone not directly involved in the decision making process of this ‘war’ is essentially powerless. We can pressure our governments to not fund a given side, but that’s about the extent of it.
Sure, but I don’t carry a sewing needle with either. Probably should, actually. The reason toothpicks are there is because it’s the only thing at hand in those rare case when you need it, mostly middle of fuck nowhere and far away from home, when only one of the phones has charge but the other has reception.
Legacy News Media: We literally have no idea why Gen Z has given up on literally everything, has decided to not save for the future, and instead is trying to live and enjoy their life now.
Real World: Dearth of opportunities to make a life for yourself, every industry has reached is maximum zenith and now makes money by wringing pennies out of consumers, you need money to exist anywhere, there are no more places to just be, and the government is clearly corrupt and about to be taken over by a literal fucking fascist party because the other party is full of pussies who don’t want to “upset the status quo” and keep letting the fucking fascists get away with shit, because “we have to follow the laws, even the ones that clearly benefit the fascists, passed by fascists. It’s the law and if we don’t take it seriously, everything falls apart. Sorry that means the fascists will win.” Oh, and climate change is about to destroy our ability to even have a functional society.
As a millennial, I’m ready for a fucking dirt nap. Things just keep getting worse and fuck nobody is coming to save me or anyone else. Everyone is so caught up in their own lives and problems no one has the time or effort to give anyone else, meaning we’re all suffering alone.
Literally what is even the fucking point of struggling to the natural end of my life? There isn’t one.
It didn’t have to be this way, but a lot of old selfish pieces of shit decided that it was more important to trash the planet and live the high life during their hayday, and then give all their children and grandchildren a swift kick in the ass and says “Children are our future! I just made that up! Now go fix the fucking messes we made for you! We’re not concerned with mass extinction, because we’ll be dead and it won’t be our problem! Good luck, or not!”
Maybe eventually when time marches on and we become the majority (I’m 23) we can make good positive social change. In some ways, while living through it is bad; the hardship and unfairness of the system is preventing the usual trend of people becoming more conservative as they age; so perhaps there is hope for things getting better in the future. We just have to keep trying; we can’t give in to cynicism.
I dunno man, I’ve met some of my peers. The vast majority of them are just normal people, right, living their lives, totally nice, but then some of them are really fucking stupid or mean, and I kind of wonder if this narrative that gen Z will save the world is true at all, or if it’s just that same sort of nonsense, that all we’ll have to do is wait and things will somehow get better.
The problem is it is not a generational issue. It’s a class issue. Rich millennials, and Gen Z will be no better than the rich Boomers. They will die believing they are just more special than everyone else and that is why they deserve so much more.
Generations won’t change shit about who is in charge, sadly.
Look I was alive and paying attention when carbon dioxide passed a threshold that is impossible to go back to. (Over 400ppm in the atmosphere.)
That was ten years ago.
Every climate scientist on the planet predicts society will collapse in the face of climate change.
But sure, keep your head buried in the sand by calling other people “doomers” because you can’t be fucked to look up publicly available scientific research.
I hope you are young so you get to see exactly how bad it gets and to question if maybe you were a dumb fuck to ignore it.
You know all this is worst in America, and I think it’s the systems.
The rest of the British colonies used highly conservative parliaments, where parliament is diverse and consensus is needed
America’s system was different, giving veto rather than encouraging consensus, focusing all power into two parties, removing the diversity
My country gets green policy by the green party gaining enough seats in parliament to makes it worth the bigger parties negotiating with them, that can’t happen in a two party system
You can’t have a bold party on the left because you have no room for a new, different party (that’s why the conservative side changed rather that a brand new party forming)
We are protected by the more stupid ideas the greens have, as the greens must negotiate to get any of their ideas up
Fuckin preach. I’m 33 and have spent the last 8 years in near total isolation because I simply do not have time for anything other than work, chores, feed and bathe myself (if I have time), sleep. That’s it. It’s deepening my depression and sense of total desperation in ways that I’d never imagined. But hey, at least my company is making billions because that’s the truly important part. I’m ready to just say fuck it and go the way of Gen Z. I’ve saved and saved and worked my ass off, played by the rules, got my degree and it’s all been for nothing. I still have nothing. In fact I literally have less than when I was in my 20s. There’s nothing I can do to stop another economic crisis and I’m no where near having enough to survive one so fuck it. I’m ready to just do what I want and if that gets me fired or Im in debt because I finally decided to just take the hit and travel wherever I want then so be it. There’s nothing we can do, we’re on the ride, the clicking of the chains has already started and we are buckled in. Time to just enjoy what we can I guess, even if it sucks the entire time.
I had an existential crisis in my early 20’s based entirely around how futile existence is. We live, and work and make babies, so that the next generation can live and work and make babies… Etc. What’s the point? There’s no long term plot line of humans that I know enough about or care enough about that I’d willingly subject myself, or my offspring to a life of existence in this, just to further.
Nearly decided to off myself right then and there.
Last year, finally purchased a house, with help from the resulting life savings of my father (may he rest in peace) and with my brother and his wife. Four fully grown adults in one house, just to afford to live. The only cherry from the whole thing is that interest rates skyrocketed immediately after we signed our fixed mortgage, so we dodged that bullet and we have two more years (as of now) for them to come down before we need to arrange for renewal or something.
But we all eat, sleep, work, repeat. That’s it. The only nice thing I have going for me in all this is that we now have a definite timeframe for when our housing will be ours and costs will finally taper off. In another 24 years. I’ll be 64. If I manage to get underpaid little enough, who knows, I might have some retirement savings by then. Freedom 75.
The corporations have turned multiple generations of people into wage slaves, jacking up the prices for consumer goods while keeping wages stagnant or even reducing wages. It’s fucking disgusting, on top of that, they’ve not so slowly destroyed the planet with pollution. The entire time acting as though they’re the victims and getting bailed out with our tax dollars for mismanaging their respective organizations, prioritizing CEO pay and dividends and stock prices over employee health (especially mental health), employee pay and livable wages. They get all the benefits from automation, computerization and mechanisation and what did we get? Nothing. This fancy machine does the work of 20 workers and will do so forever, and only needs 2 people to run, and only costs 10 people’s salary for one year to pay for, and one person’s salary to maintain, where did the extra money go? Well, the CEOs third yacht isn’t going to pay for itself.
I feel you. Just got my letter what kind of pension I can expect. If it ever happens. Let’s just say it’s not looking good. It does make you wonder why you didn’t just chose a much easier job when the stress and additional hours net you ~100 € more that won’t save you from being meh financially at best anyway.
One friend of mine was lucky enough to get a real good job. He was able to buy property and have a family. The rest of my friend group, we all worked just as hard. But we weren’t lucky so no family or peace of mind for us I guess. It’s demotivating.
You can be positive at end because you have save something with your work. I have your age, never work a single day of my life, I don’t have a bank account, I’m just living with my 70yo parent and keep going with his money that is the wage of essential worker. Where I am going? Enjoy what? What ride? I only see that probably I have to work like a slave in future, and that’s it.
I’m just glad that millennials and Gen Z are educated enough to be killing off organized religion.
A big component of earlier generations accepting how bad things are is expecting them to get better in the afterlife.
“It will be fine as long as I’m forgiven of my sins and go to Heaven! Why would I worry about Earth?”
Thank fucking goodness there’s enough education for people to see through that absolute horseshit, a lie fed to the working populace to keep them compliant until the day they die.
(To be clear, nothing against general spirituality. Mostly issues with organized religion and promising eternal life after death, which not all of them do.)
Honestly, with how loud and nasty organized religion has been in North America this decade, it reminds me of a concept in training I came across recently called Extinction Bursts (study.com/…/extinction-burst-psychology.html).
Basically tantrums because the thing that used to work, doesn’t work anymore, and testing if just Trying the Same Thing Harder will get them what they want.
Interesting stuff! I’d say the main difference is children are able to be controlled, while we’re dealing with adults who are cunning and willing to stop at nothing to change the system to benefit them and only them. In other words, their Extinction Bursts are capable of being effective, and Just Doing It Harder may work. Especially when “doing it harder” is cheating the system.
At some point we will probably do geo and it probably will be from planes. I’m not talking about some conspiracy or something. I’m talking about how we are just not going to fix climate change before it’s really going to be a huge problem (and at that moment it’s too late to fix it with carbon reduction).
Let’s say we stop all human carbon sources right now, that is not going to remove any of the CO2 we already have in the air.
Always treat a firearm as if it’s loaded. Never let the muzzle point at anything that you are not willing to destroy. Only put your finger on the trigger if you’re about to shoot. Be sure of your target and that there’s nothing behind it.
A gun is always loaded and the chamber could absolutely have a round in it. That is how literally every on-set gun death has happened. Round in the chamber that wasn’t supposed to be there.
I don’t know what in the hell I did, I have one of the solid circular round ones with a small hole in the back for the keychain. It’s been on my keys for ages. One morning I went to put my seat belt on and got a sharp stab. I pulled my keys out and it was bent 90° and I just the tiniest little bit of blood on it.
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